FRIDAY FICTION: Kate Quinn, NYT Bestselling Author!

Kate Quinn has a rare talent. She can drop you into another time period so completely that you forget you’re reading, then hit you with a detail that makes you realize how much of women’s history has been ignored, softened, or simply left out. 

In our first Friday Fiction episode, I sit down with the New York Times bestselling author behind her newest release, The Astral Library, The Briar Club,  The Alice Network, The Rose Code, and my personal favorite, The Diamond Eye to talk about where that power comes from and what it costs to do it well.

We start with the origin story that shaped everything, a librarian mom who became her first reader and a dad who quietly modeled what real partnership looks like. From there, we get honest about the vulnerability of sharing drafts, the weird confidence a writer has to carry, and why deadlines can be a gift. Kate also walks through the creative leap into magical realism with The Astral Library, plus the nerves of releasing something new when readers expect a certain kind of historical fiction.

We also dig into research ethics and critical thinking, from spotting propaganda in memoirs to reading for bias and noticing what a source refuses to say. If you love libraries, hate book bans, write fiction, or just want a smarter way to read history, this conversation is for you!!

Subscribe for more author interviews, share this with a reader who loves historical fiction, and leave a rating and review so more book people can find Babes in Bookland.

Thank you! Xx, Alex

Purchase Kate Quinn's novels

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Transcript

Welcome To Babes In Bookland

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Babes in Bookland. I'm your host, Alex Branca. Today's guest is someone whose name you've probably seen on a lot of reading roundups, bookshelves, and TBRs, and for a good reason. Kate Quinn is a New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of historical fiction whose books have a way of making you feel like you've lived inside another woman's life. From the Alice Network to the Diamond Eye to the Briar Club, she's built stories that put women, ones often overlooked and definitely extraordinary, right at the center of history where they belong. She's also a generous, deeply collaborative presence in the writing community, co-authoring novels with fellow authors and championing so many other writers along the way. She's also the reason why I started sobbing in the middle of grocery shopping, and I'm so glad that she's here with us today. Kate Quinn, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for having me. Really, it's a delight to be here. Thank you. So let's talk about Kate. It seems like your parents nurtured a love of reading and books and stories in the author's note of your newest book, The Astral Library, right here. And your foray into magical realism, which was very fun. You tell us that your mother was a librarian at the Long Beach Library, not too far from me. And there was this claw foot bathtub in the middle of the children's section, which seems amazing. And your father would read out loud to you often. What else did your parents teach you, Kate, about your worth, about how to be a woman in the world, about kindness and compassion?

SPEAKER_00 1:42

They taught me so much just by living by example. Like my father, way before there were discussions happening on the national stage about shared mental load and equal parenting, was the only father who was routinely in the pickup line, picking up the kid and like the one dad among all the mothers. And he was the one who was like, you know, packing my school lunches and he had the flexible schedule. So he was doing so much of the routine, you know, on the ground parenting because my mom had the more rigid schedule, because she had night school, she's going to library school. And he was making that work for her by doing, you know, the school pickups, by doing the afterschool snacks. And it was never a thing of like, oh, is dad babysitting today? Or it's like, I'm doing the babysitting today. It's like he just demonstrated that of course this is what parenting looks like. He would do things for my mother, like on the cold morning, go out and start her car five minutes while she's flying around, getting her purse and her shoes together so that she could walk, step right into a warm car. It was like those little acts of care for other people, for both for her and for me, for my friends growing up that showed me, like, oh, this is of course this is what a man is supposed to be. So then I'm surprised when I grow up and I start hearing about like very inadequate, you know, dadding out there and, you know, like no, you know, partners who don't show up for their partners. Because it's like I didn't have that. And like for my mom, it was, you know, this fierceness about story and getting me to examine, you know, why is it that books are important and, you know, showing how how satisfying it is to have reading as part of your life and how important it was, it was more like it was just a sense of they lived the way that they lived. And it made me think of, oh, of course that's the way it's supposed to be.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

It was just by example. Oh, that sounds fantastic. As a mom of two, it is frustrating. My husband is an amazing partner and he's never babysitting. He's just the other parent. Like that's that's what it is. I imagine you probably had some interesting dates then, because it seems like your father set a very reasonable but high standard of what it is to be a partner and be a man. Have some bad eggs along the way, Kate.

SPEAKER_00 3:49

I think I just wasn't attracted to the bad eggs, you know, because I remember it was a friend of a friend of my dad's. He always had a lot of female friends, just he was the kind of guy who could just be friends with women and in a way that where they knew that he wasn't trying to get anything out of them, he just enjoyed them as people. So we always had female friends. I remember one of them told me when I was a little girl, you are not gonna have to kiss nearly as many frogs as the as most of us, because you already know what a prince looks like. And I think actually that is correct.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

Oh my gosh, I love that. I love that. Now, I know that most of the men that you write are are based on real figures, but have you inserted any of your dad into them?

SPEAKER_00 4:29

I have in some ways. Um, in the Briar Club, there's the character of the jazz musician named Joe. And that is my dad is a young man. Uh, he literally is uh he's a jazz musician. My dad always said like he would like to live in a big a big city over in deli. And so literally I have Joe living in Washington, D.C. over in Delhi, and he's constantly practicing. And he's just a buddy to all the women in who live next door, and they all like him and he likes them. And you know, he's a romantic interest casually for one or two. And it's like just the thing of like he's a guy who is, you know, constantly thinking about his music and passionate about it. And, you know, he has a joke about, you know, coming from a hardware store family in in Indiana, which my dad did too. And so it's like I did kind of put a little tip of the hat to my dad in there, just as he's the good guy to have around, like a genuinely good guy who's just a friend to women without needing to make a big deal out of it or without trying to get an angle out of that friendship. And so, yeah, that's definitely like my dad is a young man, like before he met my mom.

SPEAKER_01 5:30

Oh, I love that. Okay, so you've answered this question in countless interviews that you've said that you've considered yourself a writer since age seven. But was there ever a teacher or someone in your life that helped help you foster confidence in your work?

SPEAKER_00 5:44

It it I had a number of good teachers who, you know, just definitely, you know, gave interesting assignments, you know, like just said, hey, this is great, you know, when I wrote poetry for class or whatever. So a number of good ones there. And that was a lot of fun. And I started, and it again, I would have to go back to my mom because she was my first reader. And like when I started writing stories, I would give them to her. And this was this was agonizing. Like I kind of like fling the pages in her direction, like, I'll have to like leave the house. Like I was so nervous to, I couldn't even be like the same under the same roof with someone who's reading my stuff. But she did me the honor of taking it seriously. Like, you know, she would read my stuff and she would um tell me it was good, but she would also tell me what I could do to make it better. Like, so I was getting a critique partner read, you know, in a kind way from when I was young. And, you know, she's still my first reader, you know, because she she's read so many books. She has such a good eye for things like character and pacing that, you know, like she's the first reader for anything that I write. And I like that because, you know, there's two ways often people can kind of ruin things for writers, sometimes through the best of intentions, just by saying, Oh, yes, dear, it's perfect. It's lovely. Which is why, you know, the the the old saying goes, if you want to just be told that your that your work is perfect, just give it to your mom. And I always say, not my mom. On the other hand, you know, it's like sometimes people, if they read their kids stuff, they'd be like, what are you wasting your time for? You know, it's like, it's like, okay, sure, it's fine. Or they'll be too harsh with it. And then you can kind of crush somebody early on who is really taking a chance and being vulnerable in that moment when you're giving your work to someone else because it is incredibly vulnerable. I still feel to this day, like there's nothing quite like that feeling of handing your work over to like your critique partners because it feels like you're you're gonna you're getting ready to get a cannonball in the gut, like if they don't like it. And, you know, it is that is still a vulnerable moment. So I always feel like I got lucky that I had a parent who was struck exactly the right balance between being encouraging and complimentary, but also taking me seriously and telling me how I could improve in a way that I could listen to it and I could act on it.

SPEAKER_01 7:52

I believe was it Hemingway who said, Writing is easy, you just sit down at your typewriter and bleed.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Yeah. Which adults like him if you also have the aid of his favorite drink, which was Abkin Champagne, which is called Death in the Afternoon. And supposedly he said, drink five slowly over the course of an afternoon.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Wow, I would be on the floor. I I don't know. I think we all would be. He was at the typewriter. There's something to it. Who knows? But that's so great because your mom also seemed to cultivate a trust when she told you it was good. You trusted that as opposed to it being like that, oh, you're just saying that because you love me.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Yeah, I didn't trust that. And you know, you have to exist in this odd space as a writer where you have to have confidence in your work and think, you know, yes, I do know how to do this. Yet at the same time, you have to have the vulnerability and the humility in your work to know this is not perfect. How can I make it better? And you need to hold both of these in, you know, in balance with each other inside all the time.

SPEAKER_01 8:54

Is it difficult to feel like you've reached the end of something? Or have you been pretty sure with all of your novels? I feel like with me, I'm in I'm in the middle of writing a screenplay right now and we're kind of getting to the end, and I'm like, no, but can't I make it better? But can't I make it better? But I can make this better, but at a certain point you just have to sort of let it go and put it out there, right?

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Yeah, you do. I mean, it's it's that's where deadlines can come in handy because you know at some point there's a time you have to hit scent. And but I think if you don't have that pressure, I mean, this is why quite a lot of writers, you know, especially that first book, it's be like, oh, I've spent like eight years on this. It's like I get it. I know there's the temptation to, you know, just keep keep tinkering. And but at some point, no, you gotta get it done. And also, you know, I don't think I can spend that long on a book because I want a new world after a while. You know, so it becomes maybe I've done what I can with this. And, you know, a lot of for my early work, a lot of it, I mean, I might put it under the bed and maybe I'd come back to it in another year or something like that and tinker with it again. And that's valuable because then you have some distance. But I wouldn't want to work on one thing all the time because I would feel stale. I like to move to new worlds, new stories, and you know, see what those have to show me.

Confidence, Deadlines, And Genre Risk

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Yeah, plus some of these worlds that you're in are not like, you know, rainbows, butterflies, and flowers all all over the place. So talk to me about the moment, though, when you decide to shift away from historical fiction with the Astral Library. Was that a tough piece of work, piece of you to send out to people? You were like, hey guys, this is I I would say the Briar Club had some magical aspects to it. So it wasn't completely, you know, zero to 60, but was that sort of hard to be like, hey guys, here's this new thing I'm exploring. Here you go.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

It was. Uh just because, you know, I wanted, I didn't know if people would necessarily follow me. It's like, okay, do you want a something different from me? We'll have to see. And, you know, I knew it was a little bit of a risk in terms of some of the things that I wanted to say in it, but it's like at the same time, it's like, okay, you know, I I I don't want to write the same thing over and over my whole life. I would like to have, I'd like to have the chance and the opportunity to do something different and say something different. So it was, you know, ner a little nerve-wracking. And, you know, there's a bit of a gulp, you know, when it goes out there. And it's like, okay, it's out there now.

SPEAKER_01 11:16

But I'm I'm not sorry I did it at all. Still that same powerful prose that you're known for. And, you know, Kate, I will forgive you for naming Alex with an I, even though Alex with an E is clearly the better way to spell it. You know, tying it into the Library of Alexandria, fine, fine. Well, that's okay. Okay, so before we get a little bit more into your process, I do just want to bring up this generosity of spirit that you have. I followed you on Instagram since I discovered you last year and when I tore through all of your books. Um, you are constantly championing other people's work. Where do you think that that comes from?

SPEAKER_00 11:50

Well, I think it comes from the days that I remember what it's like to be a debut author and trying to, you know, make, you know, put yourself out there with your first book coming out, and you know no one. And I did not. I'd like I've been doing this all on my own. I didn't know anybody. And I how on the floor, gobsmacked I was when some really big names, you know, reached down from these huge platforms they were on and gave me cover quotes. And that was Diana Gabbledon, you know, Outlander, oh my God. And then there was Margaret George, you know, the queen of biographical historical fiction. And they both gave a cover quote to my first novel, Mr. Sabrome. They did not know me. They did not owe me anything. And I never forgot that kindness. And I always thought he was like, I want to pay it forward in whatever way that I can and do that. I think the other reason why I'm constantly, you know, doing the shout-outs for, you know, new books I've discovered, new authors I've discovered too, is that I am also a reader and I always will be. And it is one of those things where if if you're not wanting to share this new story that you found that you're so excited about, then you know, like what's the point of being on Bookstagram, you know, or you know, book the book world on Facebook. I do want to, you know, shout this out, you know, when I find a new story that I love. And so that's the other thing because I always want to, you know, be sharing what I'm reading and sharing what I what has been making me excited as I've been reading. Because if you're only, you know, on Bookstagram to promote your own books, I mean, what are you doing? I mean, aren't you also here to get excited about other stories? I mean, I think that's a big part of it because I think as writers, it's very important to read. I mean, reading books is what will keep your well filled and, you know, inspiration and everything else that is important. So I never trust it when I say uh I meet see writers who say, Oh, I don't read. And it's like, why? How? I mean, how can you be a writer and not read? You know, I understand sometimes like there's you go through cycles where I can't read this kind of stuff right now because maybe it's too similar to what I'm researching and I'm trying to keep work and play separate. You know, things like that, of course. But if you don't read at all, like, why are you in this business? That's bizarre. That's bizarre.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

I do also have to have to say that I love when you pair your covers with like Oscar dresses or Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

I always spend way too much time on that, but it's just, it's fun. It's just fun.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

You nail it every time, every time. Let's talk a little bit more about your process. So you answered like over 115 questions on Goodreads, which is just another example of your generosity of spirit. One person asked you about writer's block, and you said, you tell yourself that writer's block doesn't exist. But if you are truly stuck, sometimes you turn to your mother. What's the best advice or little key that she's ever given you?

SPEAKER_00 14:33

I think it really is just the fact that having another brain to bounce ideas off of is really invaluable. And especially if it's somebody who, you know, is a you know a critical thinker, a good, you know, thinker about books the way my mom is. So I tend to like to bring her plot problems and hash them out because I have found that that is really a very good way to find a solution faster. And I think, you know, it's one of those things that I all my mom is one. I uh I go to my other author friends as well. And it is a really good thing to do because I think as writers, we all pretty much agree that like there's nothing easier to solve than other writers' plot problems. Your own plot problems are complete conundrums. You will never think your way out of that box. But you take it to a writer friend or I take it to my mom, and it's like solution immediately. And the same thing happens when like my writer friend might take a plot problem to me, and I'll be like, oh, well, why don't you just do this? And they're like, why didn't I think of that? Well, you were too close to it. Uh, and that's the reason why. So being able to have another brain to bounce ideas off of can be a great way when you are stuck to sort of think yourself out of that corner and to be able to decide to make an appearance.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

I love it. I saw it on the back of your of your books. It's always like, we've got two dogs. We're in San Diego, and then it's like, we've got three dogs, we're in Maryland. And I'm like, whoa, life changes. Um, your husband's in the Navy. Is he still an active member?

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Yes, he's actually coming up in his 20 years. So uh it's been a while.

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Well, you picked a good career for yourself then, Kate, because you can write from anywhere, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:05

It really has been a bit of a godsend because yeah, one of the main stressing factors for military marriages, military families, is that military spouses have a hard time maintaining a career if you have to keep uprooting. And for me, I do not have that problem. Uh I am in business as long as I have an internet connection at a laptop.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Yeah, yeah. And so was that by design at the very beginning?

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Or I think it was luck. I mean, uh, who knows? Um, I mean, I don't he wasn't intending to stay in for 20 years originally. And I did had no idea, you know, that uh how a writing career would turn out. All you can do is hope. So I think it all dovetailed rather neatly in the end, but partly by only partly by design. I think partly just by chance.

Generosity, Community, And Beating Blocks

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Let's talk a little bit about how inspiration hits. So you write that you got interested in ancient Rome very young because your mother had an ancient history degree and you were getting bedtime stories about Julius Caesar instead of Cinderella and watching I, Claudius, instead of the Disney Channel. You say when you saw a boom in 20th century war fiction, inspiration struck, and you wrote the Alice Network, the Briar Club came together out of Pandemic Your Loneliness, plus the essay Alone in the Kitchen with an Eggplant, which I want to hear more about in a second, a Japanese Netflix series, which you've gotta shout that one out, and then your husband sort of making an off-handed comment, it seems, during the Americans and talking about spies. The Astral Library is all about escapism, your love for libraries, and it seems a pretty strong conviction against banning books, which I'm right there with you, Kate. How have you learned to lean into these inspiring moments, trust yourself? And has there ever been a thread that you've so desperately wanted to follow, but just haven't been able to?

SPEAKER_00 17:50

Well, I it's again goes back to key how you keep that well filled. And this is why I really do believe in absorbing as much as you can, like reading everything, you know, whether it's in your genre, in your wheelhouse or not. Watching great TV shows. We're living in a great time for storytelling on the screen. You know, taking in story in any way that you can, because you never know when some little piece of uh media or some still thread from a story, something from a TV show will, you know, blossom in your head into something, or it'll the way it'll come together with other things and you know, these things will puzzle piece together and become something entirely new. I have found inspiration in the strangest of places. And I think that's part of the fun of it is that you never know when that light bulb is gonna go off. So um, yeah, that's but that's part of it for me.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

And what was sorry, what was the other part of the question? Has there been a thread or something where you're like, oh, there's something there, but you just haven't quite yet been able to make connect or follow it through?

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Yes, I have had that happen. And that's where sometimes I'll see interesting things that I think, oh, that could be something someday. I'm not sure what, but it might be something. And so I will just take a thread of an idea or, you know, a link to an interesting story or just whatever it is, and I'll just drop it into this file I have had on my computer through any succession of laptops, you know, over decades, which is just the plot possibilities file. And that's where I keep little threads of ideas that aren't quite grown book sized yet, but it might be something someday. And, you know, I revisit that now and then and I'll look at it and just think like, okay, did that just sort of die on the vine and I'll just delete it? Or like maybe is that ready to come out and do and be something more? And yeah, I do have that file and I like that. And there are um definitely some things that I just have I would love to write that I haven't yet, and that I have had big inspirational blooms, but it's not that story's time yet. And that happens when, you know, because I have to think too about not just what am I passionate about writing, but I have to think as well, since I do this professionally, about what does my editor want to publish and what do I think readers want to read. So it you have to take things like market trends into consideration too. So I end up trying to find that sort of Venn diagram overlap, that little sweet spot where it is what I am passionate about and I absolutely can see myself devoting a few years of my life to, and what it is that the market wants, my editor wants, my publisher wants, the readers want right now. And then where does that overlap? And then I look for what falls in there. And so I have some stories that live under the bed that I keep pulling out, and I'm like, I really want to write this, but I don't think it's time has come. And it's one of those things that um, you know, you never know, but things will come out from under the bed all the time. For the longest time, people used to say that like you could not sell a World War II story to save your life. No one was buying it. And yet, and so yeah, 10, 15 years ago, this is what you were hearing. And then, you know, the nightingale hit and lilac girls hit, and all of a sudden it seemed like for, you know, five, six years, you were seeing nothing but World War II stories. And so it's really as proof that everything is a cycle. And just because someone says, well, no one's buying that kind of thing right now, it doesn't mean that they won't buy it in the future. So I have some stories that I know their time just has not quite come yet.

SPEAKER_01 21:08

And maybe would you tell a budding writer, write the thing that drives you simultaneously while writing a thing that might have market value if they're not Venn diagramming? Because I feel like, especially for that first book, sometimes it's so hard. Like we all have that story in our heads that we live with, but you're right. I mean, at a certain point, you want your story to reach people, especially if you want to do it professionally.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

You want to make money. You have to you have to think about that if you're if you're hoping to do it professionally. So you might end up having to think like, okay, maybe this story isn't going to be published right now, but then it doesn't mean it never will be. So in that case, I would say, well, uh, keep working on it just for you, if that's what your muse wants, or um put it under the bed for later. Or think if there's a way that you can package it in a way that will help bring the story into a more marketable light. I mean, uh That's one of the things that you know author friends and I have done all the time where it's like, all right, if I have an idea that's not really on trend, how what can I do to make it on trend? And, you know, that can result sometimes in some really interesting and fun story choices that maybe you wouldn't have picked otherwise. And I think that can be a valuable way to go about it. So I tend to think of it as like, if you have a story and you're you're used to seeing people's faces just go absolutely incomprehending and blank when you say it's a story about an eighth-century nun who lives entirely in a s in an enclosed cell in Northumbria, and it's like, oh, and then you then you say, and it's twined in a dual timeline with a French resistance spy uncovering a murder that tracks all the way back to north eighth century Northumbria, and all of a sudden you have people like, oh, really? How does that work? And then you've done something where you've maybe twined a different timeline or a different thread, a different piece from another genre, and you've put that into your own story and you've made a different kind of hook for it. So it can be involved sometimes thinking like that to think, okay, if I have an idea that's a little unusual, can I wrap it up in something else so that I can sneak it through and tell the story I want to tell while it's uh also twined up with a different story that might bring in a little more attention to a different way in a different way. That's genius.

How The Briar Club Was Born

SPEAKER_01 23:18

That's genius. Okay, what was the Japanese Netflix series that inspired the Briar Club?

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Well, the Briar Club really was talk about like different pieces of inspiration all kinds of because I was in lockdown. I was, you know, so missing my community, my friends, my family. In fact, I would have, you know, sacrificed a limb to have everyone around a table, you know, and be able to feed them and hear good conversation again. And I couldn't have that. And so I was reading and I was rereading this wonderful set of stories and pieces written by a lovely author named Lori Colwyn, who was sort of doing the like food writing with bio, like betwining it up with humor and biographical stuff too. Like before that was cool. And she has this wonderful book of essays called Home Cooking. And there's a great one in there called Alone in the Kitchen with an Eggplant. And it describes with a lot of humor and heart what it was like when she was a broke 20-something in New York City living in this bath mat-sized apartment, um, and how her kitchen was nothing more than like a dollhouse-sized refrigerator with a hot plate on top. And if you like drained the spaghetti, you'd have to do it in the bathtub. And how she still managed to feed her friends out of this kitchen. And I kind of thought, oh, I love that. Like, what if there was an idea, maybe like a boarding house, and like that's the kitchen, and like a that's the the apartment, and like someone comes and moves into that and like changes everything and feeds everyone out of this tiny little kitchen. And I was like, I was playing with that idea kind of from this. And then I was watching this Japanese Netflix series called Midnight Diner. And I recommend it. It's like three seasons, and it centers around a midnight diner in modern day Tokyo. And every episode, a different customer comes into the diner, and the enigmatic chef and owner of the diner will end up, you know, listening to this person and maybe helping them with some problem that they have. And there's always the different signature dish that he's making for whichever customer it is. So it's this absolutely wonderful feel-good thing where it's about community and in the most unlikely places and people, you know, coming together when they they don't, you know, who might not ordinarily ever meet. And you have this man who is, you know, quietly listening to everyone, and yet you never know about him. It's like he's the eternal enigma in the middle, and you never know what his backstory is, but you know he's got one. And there's always cooking, and there's a dish, and it'll guide him, it'll make you like crave Japanese food. And I love this. I was like, oh, I could do that. And like every, every maybe each chapter will be about a different woman in the house, and each one could have a different recipe, and then I put recipes in the book, and then like the the person who's the listening ear and doing the helping is the person who's the most mysterious. And I was liking all of this and like putting my twist on it, but I was like thinking, it's this is such a cozy idea, though. It's like it's not a Kate Quinn book, like nobody's getting stabbed or tortured or arrested or anything. Uh, you know, so what how do I do that? And then that's when my husband drops in, you know, casually when I'm watching an episode of the Americans one day. He's uh drops in something about Soviet spies defecting in the US and going underground. And I was just like, That's it. There it is. That's the hook it's going through, and that'll pull the whole story together. So that really was an idea that just came together from like any number of just random pieces of information, you know, something I read, something I watched, something someone said to me. And then all of a sudden, all the pieces domino and and a book happens.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

So a fabulous book happens. That was my first Kate Quinn book, actually, The Briar. Oh, thank you. Loved it, really did. Obviously, kept going, kept going. That is just so cool. It feels like you just stay so open to life, Kate. And you just are like, what can I experience? What can I learn? Which way will the wind blow me today? And I think that's such a beautiful way to exist.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

No, I love to, I love to see if I can find in inspiration wherever I can. And really, there's no, you never know when it's gonna hit. So it's why I try to feed the muse as much as possible and uh see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 27:14

Yeah, I love it. I love it. Okay, going back to your process on Goodreads, you've outlined a four-step process for one of the people who wrote in. Dog paddle, the idea, reading as much as you can, feeding the muse, deep dive, narrowing your focus and researching that specific time period to the max. Stage three, fast patch, an even more narrowed scope of understanding that bridges your story or helps it evolve to where you want it to go next. And then the rabbit hole, editing, double, triple checking your facts. How was all of this process different for the Astral Library?

SPEAKER_00 27:46

Well, it certainly was not as much in terms of historical research. Uh, I did have moments of historical research because a lot of the book worlds that are explored are taking place at specific historical points in time. So just for one chapter, I'm suddenly doing a deep dive into uh 1920s America because it's the Great Gatsby, or I'm doing a deep dive into uh 17th century France because it is the three musketeers. But that would only be for like just isolated portions of the book. And, you know, then I jumped to something else. But what I did find was this was I had to think about world building in a very different way, just as important, but different. I had to make a world from scratch, from the ground up, you know, and that means I had to think about how did this world work? And I, you know, would do a lot of thinking about it. I think, okay, I think I've got it nailed down now. And then I would maybe outline it to a friend, and then they would throw out some casual question, like, okay, cool. So you can walk in the world, into the world of a novel, and it's like it's a real world, cool, cool, you can make life there. Can you get hurt or die in a book world? And I'd be like, I have no idea. I did not give that any thought at all. And I'm going to have to give that some thought before I write any further. So it felt like every time I thought I had it nailed down and all the exits closed off, like someone would float some question at me, and I'd realize that I had some completely unconsidered part of my world that I would need to give some thought to. So that happened any number of times. And that was uh definitely a learning curve. But it was a lot of fun. You know, really there is the sky's the limit when you're creating a world out of your own imagination. And I could put I the world had to make sense and it had to be vivid, but at the same time, I did have a lot of freedom with it.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

And that was that was fun. Did you ever find that freedom overwhelming? Or did it kind of stay in this, ooh, this is neat Lane?

SPEAKER_00 29:29

I or less stayed in the this is neat Lane. I did have some fears periodically of like, what if I, you know, I accidentally do something that some other book has already done and I haven't read it. And you saw like I have a bit in there where there's flying books. And I was like, wait, but Lev Grossman has flying books in the magician's trilogy. So is that something like I'm plagiarizing accidentally? And then I go looking, and it's like, okay, flying books show up in like this world and this world. Everywhere this world. So okay, I am not plagiarizing Lev Grossman. So it's like, okay, that's a more of a universal idea. I think I'll be okay. So I have things like that sometimes because you know, fantasy is a huge world and I haven't read all I've read a lot of it, but I haven't read all of it. So I was always thinking, like, what if I want to do something someone else has already done and I just don't know it because I haven't read that book yet.

SPEAKER_01 30:15

Going back to when you're writing historical fiction, do you ever get overwhelmed in any of those parts of the process? I imagine Kate, I read your author notes. And so if if anybody out there is not reading the author note at the end of your novels, please do yourself a favor because you really go into the actual historical people that your characters are based off of, what you decided to change and why, like how you decided to fit into your story. But what I really take away is there is a lot of knowledge in your brain, lady. How, why, how long does it stay there? I mean, how do you there's so much history out there, actually, and then maybe there's even not enough, especially when it comes to the women, which is why you've decided to tell their stories. How do you, how do you navigate all of that?

SPEAKER_00 30:58

It can be a lot when the research can overwhelm you, and then you have to remind yourself, okay, it is not my job to tell uh, you know, the entire story of the invasion of Operation Barbarossa with this book. I am just trying to tell one woman's story, one woman's focus, keep your focus and keep your focus on the story because it's in the end, it does not matter how much research you did. It does not matter that you bought 12 books on Amazon and read all of them, and that you um you had 19 tabs open, you know, researching exactly what the building composition was for Hadrian's wall. Does it advance your story? And if the answer is no, it has to go, or at least it has to be cut down so it does not info dump in the middle of your story and you lose your reader. You have to remind yourself, okay, I am not a historian. I am not um writing a nonfiction here to educate. I am a storyteller, I am writing a story to entertain. And it was, I think Bernard Cornwell said it really something like that, really beautifully. I love his work and he's really inspirational to me. But he said something like, in the end, it's not your job to to inform the reader exactly, you know, how the entire, you know, Napoleon's entire invasion of Spain went. It is your job to entertain someone who just had a hard day at work. And so there's a lot to that. So you, if you start getting panicky or overwhelmed with research, the reminder I've always found useful is just to be like, okay, okay, pull back. Like you it you don't have to use all of this. You're only using what is necessary for the advancement of the story and the entertainment of the reader. You know, of course, given that because I geek out over the research, I want to find ways to incorporate what I've read, especially if it's cool or interesting. But even then, it's like it still has to serve the story.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Right. You know, you've said plot and historical context are always a balancing act because I have to follow history. I also have to tell a good story. So it's a matter of threading the plot arc through the historical facts in a way that can be true to both. Although we know that history is also written by victors, and history is also written by men. And your stories focus on women. Just because something's been written down a certain way also doesn't mean that that was the full truth of how it actually happened.

Propaganda, Memoirs, And Source Bias

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Of course, you always have to take into account what are the biases of the source that you are looking at. And there are always some kind of bias. And it's sometimes it's there with a purpose, sometimes it is there completely, you know, unconsciously. It's an unconscious bias. And sometimes it's what isn't there, it's what is left out. You know, because again, you know, as you say, history is mostly written by the winners, it's mostly written by, mostly written by men, and it's, you know, mostly written by white men. So then look for the people who aren't that and look for those stories which are existing on the margins around the edges. And it's not that they're not there, they are. It's just that you have to go digging. But thinking about the bias, absolutely. I mean, I always like to think, make an explanation of it of like, what if 300 years from now someone wants to write a story about the epic romance of Brad and Angelina? And the only thing that has survived over 300 years are like a handful of tabloid articles. Doesn't mean so that does not mean that you are getting the facts on Brad and Angelina just because this is the only surviving material about them. So you have to take that kind of thing into account and see, like, okay, who wrote this? Why did they write it? Who were they? And what were their biases that were informing their words as they're recording them? Do they have an angle that they're trying to sell in putting this down? You know, propaganda they're trying to put out. That is the kind of thing you have to consider all the time. You know, you have to think about what culture you're looking at and what are the attitudes toward the people who are being talked about. And, you know, yeah, it's it's always a balancing act. But I think too, it does give a certain amount of freedom when you're talking about women's stories because I look for the places where it's like, where are the biases against women coming in here and what is that likely covering up? And then that will lead me maybe in a new angle of how I can tell this story.

SPEAKER_01 34:47

I love that you brought up the word propaganda because that's a great segue into my favorite Kate Quinn character, Ludmila Mila Pavlichenko. And I know how to say it because Sasia Marleveld, your audiobook narrator, is fantastic. You write at the end of your author's note for the Diamond Eye, which is my favorite Kate Quinn novel so far. Still reading all of yours. Uh, she's just such a freaking fantastic character, and what a great story. You read her memoir, and that you could tell.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Oh, yeah. It's the you have the idea that this book was published under Soviet rule. And it was very much published in order to be inspiring and to promote Soviet values and communist values. And so you can see the places where the propagandists, you know, put a stamp on it or where, you know, she just sort of lapses into propaganda speak, the way that a lot of Soviet uh writers did at the time. And then you can see the place where her own voice comes in very naturally. And it's it is not hard to spot. And there's also places to, you know, like for example, in the memoir, she has a meeting with Comrade Stalin and before she goes to America. And uh I was looking at this and I decided not to put that in because I don't think that meeting ever happened. Because she mentions that she and the other members of her deputation went to meet Stalin and, you know, were, you know, had this very inspirational talk with him before they left for the United States. The thing is, though, is that the other members of that deputation, a couple of them wrote accounts of their time in the US as well and the whole thing. And neither of them has any mention of a meeting with Stalin. And that is such a big deal that if they'd met him, they would have put that in. Like that was a big, big deal to get a meeting with the boss. And so I think what happened, the reason why it shows up in her memoir, but no one else's, is that she's the famous one. And that since she was asked, you know, why don't you write your memoir? It would be very inspirational. I'm pretty sure that in there they said, could you please insert a flattering meeting with some very nice words about our dear departed leader, Joe Stalin? And she probably, since she lives in communist Moscow, basically says, Okay, we'll do. So to me, that was one of those things where given that it doesn't show up anywhere else, and given the timing of the memoir, it's like that felt to me like that was the propaganda office making a request. And that if you lived in communist Russia, you're not turning that request down. So that's why that's in there. So it is a certain amount of critical thinking when you're looking at even a memoir and thinking about what people are choosing to tell about their story and what does that because you are still, just because it's a memoir and it's about your own life, doesn't mean you're telling everything. And it doesn't mean that every single thing in there is gospel and that even you are not biased. Just a question of what you're including in your life. One of my favorite things in that book was that in her memoir, she has almost no nothing about her first husband, Alexei Pavlachenko. Uh, she only has maybe three lines about how they met and it was this whirlwind thing, and then he abandoned her and their baby. And she has a very telling line where she just says, Fortunately, my son is nothing like his father. And I just thought there is a lot riding on that word, fortunately. And she says almost nothing else about him. Uh, that gave me a lot of freedom where I decided to make him into a much bigger figure in the book as a constant presence. And I know that that's not in her memoir, but also the reason is I know she that's because she chooses not to write about him. And I know why she chose not to write about him. Because that jerk took up entirely too much of her time as a woman having to deal with him, with this guy who was this complete deadbeat who seduced a teenage girl who was definitely not of age, and then walked out on her after knocking her up. It was not any kind of meaningful presence in their son's life. And if you were a woman who led an extraordinary life and you're being asked to leave it to posterity, your story, how much page space are you giving to your deadbeat ex? You're not giving it page space, none. So that was a case where I looked at that and I was just like, I know there's more to that story. It's just that she's choosing not to tell it, and I get why she doesn't want to tell it. And she doesn't owe anybody that story, you know, also. But I'm writing a novel, and you know, it's like I know there's more to that relationship. So I am going to infer and I'm going to have some fun giving an example of what could have been between them. And you know, it probably didn't unfold the way I said it unfolded for the sake of a thrilling narrative, but it's the case, it's that is another very specific case about you can look for what isn't there. And there's definitely a story that's in this woman's life that did not make it into her memoir. And I know why it didn't make it into her memoir, but it doesn't mean there's not something there to explore. Gosh, detective Kate Quinn too. I love it. It is kind of detective work, it's fun. I love that kind of thing, though.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

I I can tell, Kate, you just like lit up when you were talking about all of that. And it makes me want to read the Diamond Eye again, which I'm definitely going to do. Have you ever found a piece of research where you almost had to like put it down? You were, you were so excited. It was so it just cracked things open, or have you pretty much just been able to find what you're looking for?

SPEAKER_00 39:52

Oh, there's always something that will astonish you. I mean, um, and that that usually will lead to some exciting new direction. I remember for the Rose Code, like it absolutely blew my mind when I realized there was an actual Soviet spy working at Bletchley Park, passing information. And I was just like, oh my God, there's no way I can't not use that. And that actually was really great because it gave me an angle to have a mystery that can pull through the book and give me my post-war angle because I have been worrying with Bletchley Park. It's like, if I only cover the warriors, then the book ends with my women being called into the office. And it's like, thank you very much for your service, ladies. Please go home, never talk about this again. And they all say, Oh, okay. And they go home and they never talk about it again. And that is a little bit of a, you know, it's like it's not very exciting.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

We want to see, yeah, we want to see what happens next.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

To make everything close with a bang. And I thought, well, if there is a Soviet mole at Bletchley Park, the fallout from that could make for a pretty exciting post-war mystery. And so that's what gave me my full angle of how the story continues after the war.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

And I imagine you probably found some very disheartening information about women, you're right, being basically being discarded into some of these mental health. I mean, we would call them mental hospitals, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

Um, you know, asylums got yes. That was really sad because one of the angles in the Rose Code was inspired by the fact that I had a found a teeny squib somewhere of said a nameless Bletchley Park codebreaker who was confined to some sort of mental institution after she had a complete emotional breakdown following a following a failed love affair with a married Bletchley Park coworker. And she had such a breakdown and they were so concerned about her revealing classified information in her broken state that she was clapped in this institution. And a friend described going to see her and just seeing this terrible place, you know, where there's women who are wandering through this big barn-like space, you know, just gazing into space. And then she sees her friend who is just sitting against the wall saying a man's name over and over. And I just I I never found out like what happened to her, like what her name was, you know, she ever got out. And it, but the thing that made me think was like, oh God, that could be abused. Like absolutely that kind of freedom to confine someone and just throw away the key. I mean, absolutely that could be abused. And it was. I mean, there were so many people.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

In our country as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:23

Oh, yeah, in our country as well. It's like there's so many women who were confined to asylums just really for being inconvenient and not for being insane or for being troublesome in some way. And, you know, it is absolutely tragic. And, you know, I made use of it in the sense I was like, all right, I in my version, you know, she does is confined, but she is going to get out. And the man's name that she's saying is not the name of some man who broke her heart. It is the name of the man who put her there and she is going to come get him. And she does. So uh that's a nice thing about a book is that you can write a better ending than so many women, unfortunately, in history, did not get.

SPEAKER_01 42:55

Yeah, you kind of get to give them the ending that they deserve.

Why Historical Fiction Builds Empathy

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Well, it's another thread in that book was the idea that lobotomies were performed on people as supposedly this way to make well really make them more docile. And I read, I read that account of, and there is a horrifying account. The lobotomy that was performed on one of the Kennedy sisters. It was um Is it Rosemary? Rosemary, I think. And it was Rosemary Kennedy, who was, you know, had some some kind of learning disabilities, definitely some, there were some mental issues. Her family was concerned, but really it's like they were concerned she would bring shame in some way, bring embarrassment. And she was lobotomized. And this operation is described, and it is such a horror show. And that woman was never the same. And she lived in an institution the rest of her life. And it was just like the idea that this could be done to a grown woman and that it she had no power to stop it, is just horrifying on so many levels. And you know, that is the kind of thing where sadly their historical research can be so disheartening when you you know how women or the an underprivileged. People can be so exploited. I just finished this fantastic trilogy. It starts with The Wolf's Den by Elodie Harper. And it is about sex workers in Pompeii. And I had to spread these reads out because it is not exploitative in the way that it talks about sex work, but it's the fact that these women were enslaved and made forced into this work. And, you know, a certain number of them make it out, but not all of them do. And it's pretty unflinching in the way that it looks at this and the damage that is done. And I had to spread those reads out because I was just like, these I'm hurting for these characters so badly. And I know it's very well, well researched. So I know that this is this kind of thing really happened. And, you know, it's it could be hard. It's hard to read. But, you know, on the other hand, we owe it to them to remember and to shine a light on it.

SPEAKER_01 44:46

I mean, that's how I feel about women's memoirs. And I feel like historical fiction, especially well-researched and well-written historical fiction like yours, it makes history palatable in a way where it feels safe because it's inside this story. And especially if it's a Kate Quinn novel, like the comeuppance happens, and you know, like everything kind of ends on an uplifting, happy note, even if it didn't end that way in history. But what it does is it reminds us that these histories existed and they were real and it it unlocks some of that. I always thought that I wasn't into historical fiction because I wasn't really a historian. And then I picked up your books and I realized it is so important for me as a woman to just be aware that these things existed. I can read them in the safety of a Kate Quinn novel. And then when I get interested and curious, I can go and research it on my own. It's tricky for me to obviously, most women write memoirs because they've overcome something in their lives, unless it's more of like an autobiography, and then that's just a fun whole life story. But even then, a lot of it is overcoming really hard, traumatic things. Sometimes it can be a lot to take in. It can be a lot to take in.

SPEAKER_00 45:49

It can be, but it's, I always do think that historical fiction is a great gateway for history. It is ideally a way in which, you know, you finish a historical novel and that novel should inspire you, and the best of ones do. I certainly do this when I read a great historical novel. It'll inspire me to go down that rabbit hole. I want to know more. I want to find out more. And then it has a nice cyclical effect too. I mean, like if you want to think about the fact that Lynn Manuel Miranda was inspired on vacation because he was reading for a vacation read, Ron Schurnow's biography of Hamilton. And he thought, I can do something with this. And he made Hamilton, which is a great piece of historical fiction. I would call it historical fiction, even if it's a musical. But then people who went and saw it were then inspired to go back and pick up Ron Schurnau's biography of Hamilton and learn more. And that's the kind of thing where it can have a nice cycle effect where we're all learning more and getting inspired to learn more the more we read.

SPEAKER_01 46:41

Yeah, no, I completely agree. I was just jamming to Hamilton a couple days ago. Sometimes I just jam Hamilton in my house. Is that strange? I don't know. If it is, I don't care. I do too. It's inspirational. It really is. It really is. So we talked about Mila's memoir. Have there been other women's memoirs that you've picked up throughout your research? You do also mention, I believe it is, where did I write this down? In the Rose Code that you read Sarah Baring's The Road to Station X, which details the very real Osla in the Rose Code, which I loved Osla.

SPEAKER_00 47:11

Yeah, there's a lot, and this is where uh a lot of self-pub memoirs are so invaluable for research because there's so many people out there who are just doing like little modest family histories, but they're out there and they are published. So, you know, like I found a great account that was written of a POW who was and he didn't quite make it off the beaches at Dunkirk. He was captured and, you know, ended up in a POW camp in Poland and then, you know, escaped from there. And it's like, and this gave me like just enough information that I could use that info for when I had a similar POW experience in the Huntress. You know, it's like I read so many accounts of from the interviews with the surviving night witches who were talking about their experience as pilots in the night in the Night Witch Regiment. I was reading, you know, Road to Station X was one, but a lot of Bletchley Park codebreakers wrote accounts or memoirs of their Bletchley Park time. Mavis Lever wrote a biography of Dilly Knox, who was her boss at uh Bletchley Park, had a lot about her life too. And it's like all of these are, you know, rather, you know, they're not huge, they're not Ron Chernow biographies that are sitting on bestseller lists, but they're out there. And I love that because you're really getting the information right from people themselves. We had a great one that was about his family's uh part in the Washington, DC uh crime scene in the racketeering business. And so that gave me like a lot of the information for the Briar Club about how did that business, how was that business run in the 1940s and 50s? And, you know, not only that, but a really vivid description of what the neighborhood was like and what it was like to live there, what were the bars that people drank at, and you know, what were the the holidays they celebrated, just those little details that make a story so vivid. So I'm always on the lookout for like these, these memoirs that are published, sometimes for no more, no more of an audience than you know, a few friends and family, but they're still published and they're out there and you can find them. Or even if not a full book, you know, there'll be essays that are written or you know, things that are done along those lines. And that kind of thing, it's just a lot of fun. And I always feel like it's such a treat when you can find that. And it'll give you some piece of insider information that you were really looking for.

SPEAKER_01 49:19

The nuance and the perception that memoirs give, because like we were talking about earlier with history and facts, yes, this happened, but it's also how is it perceived by this person and how is that perceived differently by that person? And I just think it's one of the like most fantastic things about being a human being. It's like we are all here sort of having this collective experience, yet reality is relative to each of us.

SPEAKER_00 49:43

Yeah. You know, again, it's just because someone's telling a story doesn't mean it's the whole story. And you have to think about, I love, I love thinking about the filters that we put on to tell a story and also the filters we put on when we're reading it. Because sometimes when we're reading someone else's experience, it can make us feel uncomfortable because it's challenging something we thought we knew. And I always think that's a valuable opportunity. It's like, okay, sit with that feeling. Why are you having it? This is valuable. This is probably a learning experience, and that's why it's uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 50:14

It's like you have to explore why. You have to explore why, I think. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:19

And it's it's the idea too that like I sometimes see it drives me nuts when I see it, where I'll see someone who just says, Well, that wasn't my I live then, and it wasn't my experience. And they it's like they present that like it's like it's the argument. And I and it's just like, can you say that again, slowly? You what you're saying is that was not your experience. Okay, it wasn't yours, but it doesn't mean that it wasn't someone else's. I remember uh I think of some woman who tried to tell me it's like you could not have a heroine in 1950 who was named Jordan. Women were not girls were not named that in 1950. They were named things like Margaret and and you know, Edna and Gertrude and or whatever. And I just like, well, the heroine would have been born a few years after the Great Gatsby was published, in which there's a character by the name of Jordan Baker. And even if the mother wasn't naming her after that character, it is proof that the name was in the water as a name for women. Yeah. She just told me, well, nobody I know was named that. And I was just sort of, all right, at that point, it's like your experience of women's names, the 1950s is clearly the only experience there is ever anywhere at all times. Yeah. I'm not gonna argue any further, but on the other hand, it's like I think one of the reasons we read and we should read is and it one of the reasons reading is so important, it's that reading teaches empathy. It teaches you to live inside an experience that is not yours. And that might that is going to give empathy if you read a lot. And that will hopefully turn you into the kind of person who is not saying, well, this just because this my this experience is was not mine, that means it cannot have happened to anyone because I didn't have it happen to me. It hopefully will turn you into someone who is more inclined to think, wow, this happened to people. This happened to women in the past, this happened to women who were not like me and they had an experience that I could never have had. And now I get to experience that and with all the feelings that it's going to bring along with it.

SPEAKER_01 52:12

Yeah, yeah. I read somewhere and I wish I could remember who said it, but it was basically to the effect of reading does not fill a mind, it opens a mind.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

Oh, yeah. And I think that that's the value of historical fiction is that it can invite us to compare where lives in the past still and experiences of the past are still being echoed by lives and experiences in the present. I mean, I was in any book I've written, I've always become struck by the parallels of things that are happening to women of the past, which are still happening to women of the present. And sometimes it is something where I think, wow, this is still happening. We've hardly come anywhere at all, even though this was hundreds of years ago. And sometimes it's, wow, women had that right way back then and they didn't have it later. I mean, so sometimes it's where you'll see his that progress walked backward rather than coming forward. And it will teach you something and it will always enlighten, you know. But I I find that it can be a very useful way in which we can think about current issues, but under the lens of past issues. And then we compare we can compare them and we can see how far we've come, we can see how far we have yet to go. But it also, since it's in the guise of story, it puts it at enough of a remove that it can be a way to get to people who maybe would not want to have those conversations and comparisons in the course of just someone coming right into their face and trying to open that discussion. But a book can have that open that discussion with you and make you think about it before you're even aware that you're being asked to consider big issues.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

Exactly. There's a safety in fiction sometimes that I think you invite the reader to want to know more instead of saying, well, here's this actual person, you have to believe it. Uh, which I think is one of the beauties and the powers of your novels. And, you know, I think it's interesting. I I went through all your author's notes again last night to prep this, and I read about the declaration of conscience that you write about, and I read it. And honestly, Kate, I was what the heck? And she read that out loud in like 1950, I believe, or in the 1950s.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

On the Senate floor in front of McCarthy. I mean, like the brass ovaries on that woman.

SPEAKER_01 54:22

I mean I know, but I was like, everything she's saying then, someone needs to say right now. And I cannot believe 76 years later, it feels like someone needs to say this again.

SPEAKER_00 54:34

Where is our Margaret Chase Smith? Like, you know, I want I want her back. You know, I want her back, I want her on the Senate floor, and I want her to say the same stuff all over again because clearly it needs to be said. But yeah, it's there is so much that is so relevant. And um, it is it is astounding. I think it always astounds me. And, you know, sometimes in a disheartening way, and some, but sometimes in a very heartening way too, because if we're looking especially at women of the past, it's not only about the things that women in the past have suffered or have had inflicted on them or have had to endure or overcome, but it's also about the women who have been truly inspirational. And yes, this often does involve suffering and overcoming, but I love hearing about the women of the past who were such badasses and who, you know, deserve to be celebrated and who had these moments where, you know, you just want to roar and, you know, shout their name. And that's almost always where inspiration for me starts, is where I see some woman's achievements or a group of women's achievements in the past. And all I want to do is start shouting their name out. And, you know, and I just think, okay, that's where I can hang a story.

Next Book Plans And Staying Hopeful

SPEAKER_01 55:38

Yes, yes. And that's what I love about historical fiction too, because you finish the novel and you're like, God, I wish this woman really did exist. And then you remember, wait, she did. She did. She did. Yes. I love that. Let's talk about who you're roaring for now. You recently wrote on Instagram that you have a new book that you're working on, The Woman on the Mountain, a suffragette love triangle book. Ooh la la. I love that you added this fifth part to your writing cycle, insecurity. And we talked earlier about how you balance welcomed criticism and intuition. You have the people that you trust and you go from there. But um, can you give us any more information about the woman on the mountain?

SPEAKER_00 56:18

Yes. I this is a back to straight historical fiction. It is a dual timeline pre and post-World War I. And it is about the women's suffragette movement in the UK. And um, oh boy, if you want to talk about brave women, I mean, this is something that I think the history has been softened about it. You know, like it's more about what we are being asked to remember is, you know, the marches, you know, the demonstrations, but it's also the thing I am more interested in is how fiercely, how savagely, how bravely these women fought physically and as well as intellectually. And, you know, how brave they were and how much they endured. And for the simple thing, something we take so much for granted now, which is just that we have the right to vote. And I love this history. I love uh so much about these ladies. I love this book. So uh I can't wait to dive back into it and finished the rough draft just before I went on tour for the Astral Library. So right now, this book is getting finished up by my critique partners, and then they'll send me feedback, and then I go through my process, which is um, you always feel a little insecure, you know, again, as I said, putting it out there, but then you get it back. And my rule is you never respond to the feedback. First 24 hours, 48 is better, because your initial reaction to feedback tends to be no, you're wrong. Like totally wrong. You you don't understand what I was doing at all. You're no, absolutely not. And then if you let that sit with you and you sink, let it sink in, you start thinking, okay, maybe, maybe that third act is a little weak. And maybe, maybe this narrative choice wasn't the best one. And maybe you did have a point about my hero there. Okay, I'll give you that one. And it is that you start thinking about it, and then you start thinking, okay, and then it becomes a process about what of this do I want to keep and what do I want to throw out? And because it's not about taking all the advice and utilizing all of it, it's about internalizing it and seeing what's best for your story and then using that to make your story stronger. And if you have good critique partners and I have really wonderful ones, they are going to help you do that because they'll have an angle that you didn't consider and you will incorporate that and it's just a better story at the end.

SPEAKER_01 58:22

Kate, this is such a random question, but it just came to me. Do you dream about your characters? Do they ever come to you in your dreams?

SPEAKER_00 58:28

I'm not much of a dreamer, but I know I do dream about my characters because I one of the signs that I'm really in the zone with a book is that I will go to sleep thinking about a book problem like, I don't know how they get out of the asylum. How do they get out of the asylum? Why did I not plot this back past me? Why did I why did past me not not figure this out? Because presently, I'm not figuring this out. And then I will go to sleep and I will sleep all night. And then the first thing that I think in the morning when I wake up is then I know how to get out of the asylum. So clearly, like inside my my brain, my brain has continued to work on the problem while I'm asleep.

SPEAKER_01 59:04

God bless your brain, man. Can you get it all away?

SPEAKER_00 59:07

I'll be like, oh, I get it now. And then like, so that often is a sign, really, that everything's firing on all cylinders, is that I'll go to sleep thinking about the book. And then in the morning, I get up, wake, I wake up thinking about the book, and my brain has clearly been doing work on the book while I've been asleep. And that's usually a very good sign. It means that everything is, you know, the brain is figuring how to use these pesky fueling hours as as work time. That is something that uh, you know, I even if I don't remember like what the dream was about the book, I'll like the work was still done, clearly.

SPEAKER_01 59:38

Yeah. What do you take omega-3 as fish oil? What's your secret? What's what's happening there? Uh, there's one in the morning called Espresso. Uh, I just I feel like I could chat with you forever. I have a couple last questions for you, and then I will let you go on your day. Do you have a favorite women's memoir?

SPEAKER_00 59:54

I would say it probably would be Ludmilla Pavlichenko's because I can't think of another one I've read in such detail as hers and with such uh fascination, because really she was so larger than life. I mean, it was the idea of not only of this incredible war record, which would have been entirely a heroic and fascinating story on its own, but then the woman in the man's world and achieving such a huge level of success, but also the fact that then she had this whole second act as this propaganda pony, as some would call her. But then, you know, she was this emissary and she got to go to the America, which was so uncommon for Soviet women at that time. And then she had this friendship with Eleanor Roosevelt, and what a friendship it was. And that's the kind of thing I would not have dared make up. Like if I had made up a Soviet sniper, and then I just decided, well, I'm just gonna bring her to the US and have her become besties with the first lady. Like, I would be done out of town. Like, you know, it's like I'd be like, okay, like you can't write this. This is not credible. And I would be like, no, I agree. You know, but the idea that this actually happened was incredible to me. It's like it really is proof that, you know, life is stranger and sometimes much bigger than fiction. And so I think her memoir really does sort of remain in a category of its own for me. Okay. I think I'm I'm gonna have to read it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:09

I'm gonna have to read it and I'll do it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:11

You've not read it because it is very readable. It really is a lot of a lot of really fascinating stuff in there. And it's like there's an excellent English translation, so it's not hard to find.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:21

Oh, great.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:22

Well, you know, I feel like I read it because I read the diamond eye and I love it. Yeah, there's even more I didn't put I that probably didn't make it in, you know, from the book. But you'll you'll recognize a lot of the stuff from the diamond eye is coming right out of there. That is so cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:34

Okay, I'm definitely gonna read it. And then I have um, okay, I actually I also want to know, is there a book that you reread? You know, I feel like everyone's like, what's your favorite book? And it's like, I don't know what my favorite book is, but is there a book that you reread?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:45

Oh, there's a lot of a lot that I reread. Um I like rereading things uh because you're a different person. Yeah, every time you read a book, you know, your experience is different. It's like the way you read Romeo and Juliet when you're a teenager and you think it's so romantic, and then you read it in your 30s and you're like, kids, slow your roll. Please just don't do this. And now everyone's dead. You could slow down. You know, it's like it's a totally different experience, you know. So I think it's valuable to reread, but I have a shelf of like childhood favorites, especially that I like to go back to um just because they're comforting to me. And, you know, they it's kind of like the equivalent of like the warm blanket hug when you need that. So like James Harriet's All Creatures Great and Small, I go back to that. I love going back to some favorite Ellen Montgomery, because she's you know, always wonderful, the Emily books, the Anne books, my favorite, which is called The Blue Castle. I I will always go back if I need a laugh to Auntie Maim, uh, because that is an old book that has really stood the test of time. And, you know, like just going back and reading by itself, like, for example, the scene where she has been trying to make nice with her son's prospective in-laws and her prospective daughter-in-law, and they're at the dinner table, and um, this family, which is just horrible, like the father starts on this anti-Semitic rant, and there's just the moment where she puts the napkin down and lets him have it. And like it is the most satisfying thing to read. And it's like this was written, what, back in the 50s or something? It's like this this has really stood the test of time. Like, this is like you could read this like today, and it's like, no notes, 10 out of 10. There's some wonderfully thing, funny things. Like, she has a fun thing where it's like they go to the old south and she just skews all this anti-bellum romanticism and this lost cause BS and just skews it. And it's it's all kinds of stuff that is just really great and funny. And the story continues to, you know, always make miles. So, yeah, those are some books that I return to when I kind of need that, you know, dip back to childhood.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:39

I'm raising a little reader. And, you know, I just got obsessed with the Sweet Valley books when I was little. So I never read Little House on the Prairie, The Juni B. Jones, Beverly Cliff. I never read any of that. So I'm doing that with her. I'm gonna add all these books that you just suggested to her little list. So I'm excited.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:55

Yeah, she'll love it. It's like I do feel too, it's like when you get to teach a reader, you'll learn so much yourself. I mean, like my father read to me, and that's where we started out talking. He read to me, but the thing is he wasn't a reader himself when he started with reading to me because he was a musician. So like everything he read was like in relation to music. It's like his idea of a little recreational reading was a book on chordal progression, you know, or like music theory, you know. So all of a sudden he is married to a librarian who is reading nonstop. And like then he's raising a little uh raising a kid and he knows that like well, she should read. So he starts reading books to me that he has never read himself, so he's getting the education too and becoming a reader. And my mom still remembers coming home from work one day when it's like he had been reading me like the original Robin Hood tales. He didn't know Robin Hood dies in the end, and it's really tragic. And so it's like she walks through the my mom walks through the door and it's like I'm sobbing, my father is sobbing. There's a sob fest going on, and she's just like, Oh, you didn't know, did you? You know, it's like, and there could be these landmines in uh, even as adults that we're not aware of. My my my grandmother was a teacher, she fell afoul of a similar landmine, did not realize when she read aloud to the class from where the red fern grows, how that book ends. And like, again, they're total tear fest through the whole room, teacher crying too. You know, it's like, so yeah, these things can still ambush us, even as adults.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:19

Yeah, just because maybe they're children's literature does not mean that only children should read them. Actually talk about compassion and empathy. Where the red fern grows, I am still traumatized by that book, by the way. Traumatized, trauma. My husband pulled down Charlotte's Web for our daughter, like I said, seven, first grade. And I was like, Are you sure? Do you remember what this book is? And you know what? To her credit, I feel like kids handle death so much better than we do, anyways.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

Um I remember crying so hard at Charlotte's Webb that, like, I think my parents had to hastily go back to the first chapter and say, See, she's still alive.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:58

That's genius. Yeah, you know what? She was just kind of we actually we lost some pets in the past couple of years. So we have been sort of able to introduce her to that idea. And she sort of kind of believes in reincarnation. That's a whole nother topic. But so there's this thing where she's like, maybe they'll come back. I'm like, yeah, maybe they will. You know, I'm just like not touching it. But okay, Kate, last question that I'm gonna let you go. How do you stay hopeful today?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:22

I think it always helps to read. I think that finding hope in books can take different forms. I mean, I think we can, and we did a lot of this in the pandemic where people were reading a lot of romance because you wanted that guarantee of that happy ending, and that's valid and fine, and that'll keep your spirits up. And you might read mysteries for the comfort of knowing that what is unknown in the end will become known. And you would read historical fiction because it is comforting to know that people who have undergone very dark, very traumatic, very complicated times have managed, fighting very evil things, have managed to be victorious in that fight. And if they can do it, then so can we.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:00

Well said. I love that. Kate, thank you again so much for coming on Baves and Bookland. This conversation has meant so much to me. You'll never know. Julie, your amazing publicist, sent along an extra copy of the Astral Library and the Diamond Eye. And I'm glad I'm gonna give those away because I love them both so much. I I own them and myself too. Um, and then I had to get from the library some of your other books because I know you're a big library lover. So I wanted to support you. And I will support you until the end of time. And I can't wait to read all the rest of your books on my TBR and all the ones yet to come. Thank you so much for coming on the show today.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:35

No, this was fantastic. What a great discussion. And I hope I can do it again maybe after a Woman on the Mountain comes out next year. A thousand percent. Yes. I'll set it up with Julie right now, okay? Fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:46

Thank you, Kate. Thank you so much. Have a wonderful rest of your day. You too. And thanks again. This really was such a fun discussion. Oh, I'm so glad. Thank you. Have a great day. Me too. Bye. Thank you so much for listening to our first Friday fiction episode. I hope you enjoyed it. Please send it to a friend and rate and review the show wherever you podcast. And if you'd like to further support the show, you can find us on Patreon or subscribe on the Apple Podcasts for extended episodes and more bonus content. Next week we've got a beautiful episode coming your way. I sit down with author Alexandra Grave about her memoir Seeing Joy, where she details caring for her 96-year-old mother at the end of her life and the strange visitors that she has. Until then, take care of it.