The Low and the High Notes // Brandy's "Phases"

Brandy Norwood’s memoir, Phases, is the kind of celebrity memoir that makes you grateful for the music and furious about the machine behind it. My friend Kate and I revisit Brandy’s cultural landmarks like Moesha, Cinderella, and “The Boy Is Mine,” then zoom out to the bigger question: what happens when an industry profits from a “good girl” image and leaves no room for a young Black woman to be human, messy, or still becoming.

A big thread is the tension between what Brandy says and what she seems to avoid saying. We talk about how Phases feels careful, as if certain bridges still cannot be burned, even decades later. But we also highlight the memoir’s strongest emotional material, especially around identity and image. When the memoir does go deep, it hits hard. 

The takeaway is not that Phases answers everything, but that it opens the door to better questions about artistry, survival, and what reclaiming your narrative really costs.

Purchase Phases by Brandy

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xx, Alex

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Transcript

Welcome And Brandy’s Reclamation

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Babes in Bookland, your women's memoir podcast. I'm your host, Alex Franca, and this week my friend Kate joins me to discuss Brandy Norwood's phases. Brandy gave us Cinderella, Moesha, and some of the most gorgeous vocals of the 90s. And in return, the industry gave her burnout, bad boyfriends, and a reputation for being too good. Her new memoir Phases is her finally reclaiming the narrative. And today's episode, we're getting into all of it. What she said, what she held back, and why we're still rooting for her. This is an extended version of our conversation. Thank you so much for supporting the show. Hi, Kate. How are you? Good. I'm happy to be back. I'm happy that you're here. Thank you so much for reading this book very quickly. Did you read it or did you listen to it?

SPEAKER_00 1:02

A little bit of both. I don't know if there is an audiobook version. So I like downloaded the Kindle version to read, but then I use my assistive reader. That's right. My robot, my robotic reader. When I'm like driving or, you know, if I don't have time to sit down and actually read.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

I feel like that would be such a mistake if they do not have Brandy.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Yeah, I would love, I would have loved to have heard her tell like tell it, like her in her voice, and her voice, you know. And her voice is so I her voice is so smooth.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

I love it. Okay, so Brandy did write this with Garrett Kennedy, and I appreciate that she shouted out her co-writer on the cover. I think celebs are doing this thing where they've realized that we will find them out if they have a ghostwriter. So just tell us that you didn't write this. Like it's fine.

First Reactions And What’s Missing

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Yeah. I mean, you wouldn't expect someone who hasn't spent their whole life writing to necessarily be, you know, a phenomenal writer. Right. So what did you think of Brandy's phases? Okay, I really enjoyed it as a person who comes from a music background, like who myself, you know, had singing aspirations growing up. I worked at a record label right out of college, briefly. Like I knew a lot of the people that she was talking about, and my eyes were bulging out of my head at times. Like it was really amazing to hear her talk about. In some ways, she was sort of, you know, the first to the picnic for some of these really major names and people who then went on to do even more and more. So it was really cool to hear her, you know, perspective on that and just her experiences. I really enjoyed it. And I enjoyed experiencing her emotional journey in terms of finding herself and all of that. I thought it was really interesting.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

For me, this memoir was a lot of things. It was really interesting to me when it came to her her writing about discovering and fostering her talent. And I found it a little boring when she was talking about the background to all of the music stuff because I didn't really know these people. And also I didn't know the songs.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Yeah, it's a lot of like, I feel like there was a lot of peeling back the curtain onto like the creative process, which uh, you know, I think you and I, I mean, we both have somewhat of a creative background, so we can get into it somewhat. But when you get into things like mixing and the studio and all of that work, that's so niche specific to that particular type of work that I know what you mean. Like once she started getting into the nitty-gritty of all of that, it was like, oh, okay, this is interesting, but like I don't really have anything to, you know, compare it to.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

And it was also like, I don't want to be rude, but these weren't commercial successes. So it almost felt like she was trying to be like, but guys, look how hard I worked on them. And it's like I never doubted that she worked really hard. And it was heartbreaking the amount of herself that she really did seem to pour into these things. And when that one producer who she thought she had a good relationship with kept giving like all of the bangers to other singers, and like how Aliyah said that she didn't want her producer to work. You know, it was all the all of that background stuff was was interesting, but it's just like if I am not a fan of the song or the album, I just I'm not interested at the bat. And I like brandy. I loved learning about right, the boy is mine because I know that song and I love that song. But there was too much of the other stuff, unfortunately, which you know is a big part of her life. So I get why she included it. But for me, that's where the memoir dragged a bit.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

I was looking things up like as I was reading it. I was looking up the song on Apple Music or whatever and trying to like pair up to what she was saying. And and I think that really helped. Cause I feel like if I hadn't done that, or because I when I wasn't doing that, it started to get really heady, kind of like, oh, there's so many details about this thing, but I can't really attach to what she's talking about.

SPEAKER_01 4:45

So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

I needed to like actually hear the song she was talking about.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Girl, I told myself I managed a spoke last week and I said, listen to Brandy's albums, listen to Brandy's albums, listen to Brandy's albums. I did not. I don't know what I was doing. I think I just kind of I wasn't in a place where I could like put music on where maybe my kids weren't around and you never know. But I did watch the pilot of Moesha last night.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

So we'll get into that, which was that I didn't go down and I wasn't, I feel like Moesha was maybe just a smidge before last time. Like we were a little young for Moesha. So I don't, I mean, I knew about it and I was familiar with it, but I never really watched the show or got into it. So I'm interested to hear what you have to say. That's very cool. Yeah, so we'll get there.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

I also felt like her memoir was a bit timid in the way that she seemed to approach talking about her life. It seemed to me like her memoir was I was at the top of my game, and then I kind of faded into not obscurity, because Brandy is too big to ever be obscure. But she didn't have this lasting power either by choice or by no fault to her own because of the music. She didn't really talk about like, I'm not taking acting jobs anymore. Like it was weird. It was just kind of like, here's how I here's me growing up, here's my wisha. And but then it was like clearly this memoir is her announcing her sort of comeback or attempting is going on.

SPEAKER_00 6:11

I mean, I would have that's you know what she's planning. And it would be like a logical time, like her daughter, because I looked up her daughter, her daughter is grown now, she's like in her early 20s, and you know, this would be a logical time for her to come back and start doing some projects and things, and but because she was planning that, there wasn't I feel five, I just felt like there was so much more that she could have explored about her feelings of things.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

It felt like she almost got there a few times, and we'll read a couple quotes today, but then it was like she's too afraid to burn bridges, she still wants to be seen as a good person and a good girl.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

Like, is she trying to still keep some doors open with some of the way that she's talking about? Because to me, there were a lot of things that she described that I was horrified by. Like she started this career when she was basically 10 years old. I mean, what she was writing. And so, yeah, I I had a lot of thoughts on some of the things she experienced at a very young age, very young. I mean, she she released um that first single or that first, she was 15. I mean, she was a baby. She, oh my gosh. So thinking about some of what she went through. To me, it read like basically a a horror story of like what happens when children are in that industry and exposed to way too much way too soon. And it does, and then they're used, you know. It's like, where are the child labor laws? Like, why are there no protections in place to limit people from taking advantage, which is what they're doing? They're create making a commercial product of these children, these literal children, and then just using them up for all they're worth until they burn out and then just throw them away. I mean, I was so mad. I was so mad the whole time. Yeah. I felt like she was restrained in what I was experiencing is that a lot of anger and like hurt for her was just kind of like plainly stated sometimes of like this is what happened, as opposed to maybe digging into a little bit of like her own eye, because I'm sure she has a lot of feelings about it now as an adult looking back on it and having her own child, you know? Yes, so yeah, it felt restrained to me. I would agree with that. I'm glad we're on the same page then.

Songs Whitney And Grammy Dreams

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Okay, so let's get further into it. Her book just came out, end of March, and her dedication is to Sai Ray continue to be a light. All right, well, let's get into our quick topic. So, Katie, what is your favorite brandy song or performance?

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Okay, so for me, it's definitely Have You Ever? Do you know that one? Do I do I know you know it? Okay, did I live?

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Like in the early late 90s, early aughts.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

But like that song, okay, that song was written by Diane Warren and then produced by David Foster, who like I don't know if you know who that is, but to me when I read that.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

Okay, there you go. Okay, there you go.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Um he's married to Catherine McPhew, by by the way. Yeah, I I do know that. Okay. Um but they are both, you know, icons in their own right. And so it's like no surprise to me that that's the one that I, you know, well, because I didn't realize that until I was reading that part of the book. And I was like, oh, no wonder I know and love that song. Like, and she and she did it such justice, she sings it beautifully. So um, yeah, definitely that one. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Ready for a semi-embarrassing story that I'm not embarrassed about because life is life. So I loved The Boy is Mine so much, Katie, like so much. I was an only I was an only child. I would I would like do music videos by myself, like little performances. I would be Brandy, and then I would be Monica, like fighting with myself about a boy, just like in my room. Oh, that's so cute though. That's like it's so wholesome. But like that is one of the memories. I mean, I can see the room that I'm in. I remember doing that physically in my body. It's one of my like strongest memories of childhood.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Oh, I love that.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

I just love that song so much. And then I mean, Brandy as Cinderella, I mean, she nailed that part. And I didn't realize as a young girl what I that that I was seeing something so groundbreaking. Yeah. I just saw a beautiful young woman playing Cinderella and like singing the hell out of it. And like she talks about the casting and it was interesting because they were like, Do we have too many black people with Whitney Houston? Like, should we not hire Brandy? And then I was like, wait, Whoopi Goldberg was in it too. Like, what's happening? Yeah, why would you? I don't know. I was like, Brandy's the one that you're gonna but I guess that must have been a big step. The lead, Cinderella, the title character being not this white blonde girl. Yeah, sure. But I loved it.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

I think that's a really good performance. It was really good. Yeah, that was really good. And just like now knowing because I didn't know all that about her relationship with Whitney Houston. So now knowing that, I see it in a different light, you know, of kind of part of their budding relationship. The Whitney Houston story, the arc of that was wild. I really enjoyed that aspect of this book. That was very cool.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

Me too, because we'll never get Whitney's memoir, you know? And so to have someone who is in the industry and loved Whitney, the icon, before getting to know Whitney the person, but still approaching her with such love. Like I did really love reading about those interactions. I thought they were really special. Me too. Okay. Brandy opens the memoir, kind of about to go on stage to sing The Boy's Mine with Monica as like a an anniversary performance at the Grammys. Yeah. She won a Grammy for that song. So very quickly, give our listeners your Grammy story. We do have this story in one of our Paywald episodes. I believe it's our sister act episodes. Yeah, I think that we do both movies in one bonus episode. So be sure to check that one out. But Katie, you sang at the Grammys when we were in college, which was like the coolest thing ever. So tell tell us about that.

SPEAKER_00 11:56

So yeah. So I was part of a backup choir for Norles Barkley. If you remember Garles Barkley, CeeLo Green. It was incredible. And I I want to say in the book, she described a little bit about being on the Grammy stage. And that part, I was like, oh yeah, she's dead on. Like this is very um disorienting, almost dizzying. I mean, it's so many people and it's such a large space. And you know, even if you've been in somewhat larger theaters before, nothing can compare to this feeling. And we were up on a big platform beam. It wasn't even really, I mean, it was like a um how wide was it? It was pretty narrow. Like I it was it was a little frightening being up there and you know, but it was incredible and it was very cool to, you know, meet some different people, be backstage, all of that. What was the rehearsal process like for that? So I want to say we did several rehearsals in like we did several rehearsals in a rehearsal studio or like, you know, rehearsal hall before the big day. And then we had maybe just one or two dress rehearsals like actually there at the Staples Center the night, you know, the day or two before. And then we just did it. I mean, I thought it was I thought it was way less rehearsal than like I ever would have expected, you know. Meanwhile, thinking about high school musicals and things and rehearsing for months for these things, you know, you just two, three rehearsals and you put it on. Go, go, people. Yeah, well, that's why you were a professional, you know, they can count on you to to nail it. And actually, funny story, that was the first job like ever that I ever got paid for. Like I've never had another job that I saw. I was I always laughing. That was my very first paycheck was singing at the Grammys. Okay, wait, this might be it was not a lot of money, don't worry. It was not a lot of money. It was like a thousand dollars for the whole thing, but you know.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

I know, but I feel like I would pay to be in the backup choir for the Grammys. Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

It was the exact same thing. I was like, I can't believe I'm getting paid for this.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Because it was just such a fun experience and just totally wild. It's so cool. Okay, who is your greatest of all time female singer? Oh my gosh. Okay, this one was hard for me because because we're reading about Brandy though, and it's like in that era, I mean, Celine Dion, man. Like, I just have to come back to Celine because she was it for me when I was growing up. Like she was who I went, you know. Whitney was Brandy's Whitney, and Celine was like that for me. I mean, oh, just loved her. I like every song. I just Diane Warren wrote a lot of those songs as well. Okay. Um, clearly I love a good power ballad. Yeah. Um, but yeah, and she's so funny. Celine Dion's so funny. Like, if you see her in interviews or she has a she has a TikTok. Oh, she's hilarious. She's like, she could have had a comedy career if she wasn't a singer. She's so funny. You should go watch, go watch her TikTok videos.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

I totally will. I the one thing, because I'm a huge Celine Dion fan too. I mean, seriously, huge. Like, would it's all coming back to me now? Like, that's another one that I would just like sing in my house.

SPEAKER_00 15:00

Yeah, yeah. The drama, the drama. I feel like we don't get that these days. Like we really're not the same level of drama. I mean, there's some amazing singers. Like the the one modern day that came to mind for me was Adele. Like, oh my gosh, Adele. Like, yeah. But at the same time, there's still like less drama than there was in these like big 90s power ballads.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Yeah, I miss it. I know. I miss it too. One of my favorite Celine songs is um Because You Loved Me. Do you know? I mean, that song is so beautiful. And then the movie that it was kind of a part of the Michelle Pfeiffer Robert Redford movie. Oh my gosh, what was that movie called?

SPEAKER_00 15:34

I forget, but oh, um, Up Close and Personal. Yes, thank you, honey. Yes, that was one of my favorite movies growing up.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Movie Makes Me Heat Ball.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

And Diane Warren wrote that song as well. This is just like Diane Warren. It really does. Diane Warren have a movie. She's my person. She's my person.

SPEAKER_01 15:51

I don't know, but we need to look that up. Okay. And here's my promise to you. We will cover that memoir if she has one. Okay. All right. The only like the thing in the Celine story that dulls the shine for me is like her husband, her ex-husband. And when you when I got old enough and when all that came out, yeah, you're just like, oh shit. Like she was basically groomed at 14. They got married at like 16 or 17 or something. I mean, it's very uncomfortable. Um, I know. Very uncomfortable. I agree with you. I do think it's a three-way tie for me on any given day. Someone's ahead of the other one. Celine Whitney, because Whitney Houston, bodyguard, and I want to dance with somebody is just higher love. Her her post-humorous higher love remix with Kaigo is my ringtone. Like Whitney Houston, oh my God. And Mariah. I mean Mariah fucking Gary, man.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

Mariah. Oh yeah. Like we had it all. You know, I will say, I honestly, it's funny to me that I go to Celine because, and hopefully Celine never hears this, but like I actually think technically, technically speaking, like Mariah and Whitney are probably better singers. Celine's an amazing singer. So it's like, how do you compare like the 100th percentile to like, you know, 100th percentile, whatever? Yeah. But still, I'm like, when I think about their singing and their style, and yet there's something about Celine, man. I don't know. No, seriously. Something.

Period Stories And Moon Phases

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Yeah, the songs too. I mean, you just all come together. We just had so many great female singers. We did. We really did. Gosh. Yeah. I'm looking forward to Adele's new album, if it ever happens. Because she's always got some good, it's reminiscent of like those women. Yeah. Okay. Next quick topic. So Brandy starts her period on her first TV show, Thea. And a woman tells her, which I like this. A woman tells her, that's your power coming in. I thought that was a beautiful way to put it. The rest of her experience on Thea, not so good. And even like her TV mom, Thea, turned around and kind of like made this really uncomfortable joke. But, anyways, what was your first period story? Do you remember? Was it dramatic? I remember. Oh.

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Um, it wasn't that dramatic, I guess. So I was in PE at school. I was in fifth grade. Wow, that's young. I was pretty young. And I was like basically the first of my friends to get her period. So it was, it wasn't unexpected because you know, we'd done like health videos and all that. Like my mom was a nurse. So like I was very prepared. But at the same time, I like I had enough. Like I didn't have a pad, I didn't have anything with me. Um, and I went in the bathroom and I think I was in there for a while because eventually my PE coach came in and she was like, Katie, are you okay? Yeah, yeah. And I told her, you know, I think I started my period. And so she brought me a pad and like, you know, it was very sweet. But to this day, anytime I would go to that, it was this one particular bathroom at the um big field, the big football field. There was a particular smell in that bathroom. And every time I would smell it, it just made me feel like that like sense of like nauseous, like getting your period kind of vibe. I don't know. It was the weirdest. It's some cleaner they must use. I don't know. But I have the weirdest visceral transported back to that time and just uh oh, that's wild.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

That's wild. What about you? So I was in high school. I was a freshman in high school. Okay, and I hadn't started my period yet. I was the last of all of my friends, and I was like so ashamed, which is so silly. I know, because it's like, hi, I can't control my body. Yeah. And it was my birthday weekend, it was my 14th birthday, and I was on a speech and debate overnight trip to West Texas. So, like, we were in Houston area. This is what it was probably like a 10-hour bus ride. Oh my gosh. And luckily, there was this girl who I had already befriended. She was a senior, and she just took me under her wing. We had to go to the little West Texas AM like bookstore and buy pads. And I was so embarrassed, but also so, so happy that she was there to kind of be with me. I think a lot of the people ended up finding out, but everybody was really just nice to me for the rest of the weekend, which is really nice. I know, but it was like my 14th birthday present from the Lord. He was like, Hey, here's your picture coming in. Here's your power coming in. But I'm stealing that, dude. When my daughter starts recreating, we're like, That's your power coming in. That's your power coming in. Oh, love it. I love that. Okay, she did have some, Brandy did have some great women on some of the sets, and then some not so good people on some of the sets. So yeah. All right, our last quick topic. The story behind the title. Phases is the title, right? She writes, Ever since I was a little girl, I have been drawn to the moon and the folklore around her. The quiet of the night helps calm my racing thoughts, and the moon soothes me down to my soul. I find so much beauty in her phases, an endless cycle of endings and beginnings, rebirths, cleanses, second chances. As a child, I remember being told that my dreams were written in the stars and the power of the moon could make them come true. Okay, Katie, I sent you this little buzzfeed quiz. Did you do you feel like you were a moon lady or a sun lady before you took the quiz? And then did the quiz confirm that for you? Or are you taking the quiz right now? You're taking the quiz right now.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

It's okay. I didn't take it either. No, no, I haven't taken it, and I did not realize it was a link. Now looking at it, I'm like, oh, that's a link. I thought she was just being special, putting it in.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

It's glued and underlined it.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

No, I just thought about it from like more of an esoteric perspective. I was like, ooh, am I more like warm like the sun? Yeah, you know, yeah. Versus dark like the moon. My automatic response was I'm moon or sun, either one, no matter just so long as it's raining. I'm a rain girl. Like give me rain, give me like catharsis, give me, you know a little bit of gloom, but like a release. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

I feel like that would make you moon then. Yeah. I'm taking, I'm I'm taking it real fast. Oh, I'm a moon. Yes. Okay, let me see. Okay, it says I'm definitely in. introverted and very in touch with my emotions. I wouldn't say like I am I feel like I'm introverted as I've gotten older. Um but I don't I'm not definitely introverted. But I am in touch with my emotions. I like low-key chill activities and love music that makes me feel bittersweet emotions. I mean it's a BuzzFeed article so take with it what you will what what what I clicked on the link I clicked on the link telling me like playing like a series of sirens.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

You're telling me there's like a security alert no I virused you. You virused me. No it's fine. I have a Mac so I'm good.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Yeah you are good.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

That's funny mine mine came to a that's so funny.

SPEAKER_01 22:45

You know I was like oh my let's just say you're a moon too. I'm a moon. I think I'm a moon girl. I love the moon. I love I'm with brandy. I fucking love the moon. I this idea of endings and beginnings and the sun doesn't do that. It's just always shiny with the moon and there's the dark side of the moon. Yeah I'm into it. And my very first short film was called Blue Moon. So well there you go.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

I've been channeling this for a while it's very feminine you know when you think about it like cycles and yeah yeah okay we're we're going off on the moon.

Memoir Restraint And Grooming Talk

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Let's get back to the memoir. This memoir is Brandy telling her story in her own words, reclaiming her narrative, telling her truth but she writes still even now I'm afraid I will disappoint people by sharing my story. I'm certain details here will differ from how others might have told it. So that was also my first clue to be like okay so she's holding back a little bit or and I and there's something to that right like we're all living our own versions of whatever truth we're experiencing. Sure. And she really gets into that when she talks about dating Wanya.

unknown 23:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:50

It's a voice to men, which that entire chapter that was the one time where I was like oh she turned up the heat here. This is what I've been wanting this whole time. Yeah. But I also get it I'm sure she had to just balance being defensive and didn't want to come across bitter. And I know that there's you know the angry black woman stereotype and so I I understand this line that it felt like she was walking very carefully but it did feel more like I don't want to burn any bridges in an industry that I'm about to hopefully have a comeback in. Go back into. As opposed to someone who's just like fuck it, I'm done with this like let me tell you guys what happened.

SPEAKER_00 24:29

I will say I liked though that I'm trying to remember the name of that chapter because she ended the chapter the final words of the chapter like her final words on the issue were like he was an adult and I was a child. Yes. That in and of itself is enough right there for me to be like yeah she's like condemning this this is you know she's saying what it is. And there was some stuff in there about like technicalities around well we never did it in a state where it's illegal because that is so fucking gross. I'm like babe if you knew enough at the time to know that you weren't doing it in the states there where it was legal then you at the very least knew as it was immoral. You knew that there was a question about whether this was right and if you loved this woman you would not do this to her. This child I should say this child.

Childhood Roots Church Braids Bullying

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Yeah yeah you would have waited like how hard would it be to just wait like come on I know she really she doesn't have a lot of winners in the male partner no arena she has no winners I don't even know if she's if she's currently with someone it didn't seem like she was she doesn't mention anyone in the book. We'll get to that but let's start with her childhood. She was born in Macomb, Mississippi, but her family relocates to Carson, a suburb of LA when she's four after her father is offered a Minister of Music gig at a church in Inglewood singing is seen as a gift from God and her family one meant to be shared. It's a huge part of who she is who her family are and from a very young age as is the church. I really love her chapter about McComb Mississippi there's the little history lesson there and she writes about how later as an adult she's struck by how Macomb was this safe place to her as a child because she was among people who loved her who didn't expect anything from her I think it's really what it boils down to.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

And especially at as a child in contrast to like the bullying and the tension that she was experiencing in Carson she writes Time magazine called Macomb the toughest anti-civil rights community in the toughest anti-civil rights area in the toughest anti-civil rights state in the union. And she details the rippling effects that segregation and hate has had on her family, on their community and I thought that this whole chapter was just such a testament to the resilience of the black community. She writes by the time I was born change had come but like a cautious visitor most folks kept to their own not by law anymore but by choice or at least what passed for choice when generations of separation had carved such deep channels in the landscape of the human condition.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:06

I thought that was I mean go Garrick. Yeah. You know we talked a lot about when we discussed Catherine Johnson's memoir there was a lot of history seeped into that. I don't know I just appreciate when people don't when that stuff isn't ignored.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

It's so nice to hear the story of just an individual in that time period. Like it makes it so much more relatable and real and um and I also feel like what you said that it was a safe place for her. Like her parents clearly did a remarkable job of you know in the con in that context that she's just given us making this this is the place that she feels the safest in the world and the most like herself in this place that otherwise you know in in a grand view of history was probably not so safe. And yet family has a way of kind of grounding us and securing us when they do it right. Sounds like hers did.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

I mean her parents sounded amazing even we'll get into we'll get into the tricky relationship that she develops with her mother when her mother becomes her manager. But it made sense to me that who I always felt Brandy was this grounded more more secure individual than you know there are a lot of insecurities that came through during her memoir and she she touches on which how can you dodge those being a young person in the industry like it makes sense to me that she experienced them. But overall she seemed like a like she seemed like she knew her worth and her value even though she was told you know she wasn't pretty she looked like an alien later she was definitely um discriminated against because of the color of her skin and so all that stuff but I thought that was what made some of the funner moments in the memoir when her sass and her personality and her confidence really shine through this this little girl did some things that I was like whoa where did that confidence she had some fire in her like let's be real and I'm like I hope we see more of that you know in the next like if she does make a comeback girl give us your fire like give us the sun to your moon you know like maybe it it maybe both need to exist and I agree I think that that's something that and she talks about being a people pleaser feeling like she had to be a good girl all of that stuff makes so much sense to me. We've heard it time and time again in a lot of these young pop stars memoirs. Yeah but so it's like okay now what? Let that fire out.

SPEAKER_00 29:28

Well and I think like contextually like thinking about the music industry back then versus today it's a safer space now for her to basically just be her authentic whatever artistic self she wants whereas back then you weren't anybody without the machine you know and the machine churned you up and spit you out as whatever they wanted you to be basically and you had to be chosen and picked. And so all of that like I feel like a lot of her insecurities were about that. Whereas now people can get on TikTok or YouTube and basically make themselves stars, you know they don't have to align themselves with some group of people who wants to to package them in any particular way. Now many obviously do ultimately because they see the value in in marketing which it does have some value but still it shouldn't be running the show and it you know I think she I think she could I think she could come back like she's very talented. I know man hearing about her conducting the choir when she was like 10 years old are you kidding me like 10 years old?

SPEAKER_01 30:24

Yeah yeah no she's kind of a musical genius and incredible talent. Yeah yeah no I would agree I would agree so I'm excited to see what she does next and I do hope that she at the very least because I think she she would write like this was the most authentic album to myself but to your point like it's only to a point that it could be authentic to who Brandy was it still had to be who the market needed her to be in order to sell it.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

And so it's kind of like honestly who like a select few executives at a record label wanted it to be like truly it was coming down to the opinions of like just a couple of men and mostly it was men.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Yeah which I also love learning about the significance and importance of braids in her family and the community. That was kind of interwoven throughout later in the memoir she'll write that getting her braids done during Moesha was one of the few times that she found like a respite from the grind that her life had become she writes never would I have imagined that my hair would have become such an essential part of my story how those braids would transcend mere style to become symbolic. So now this could be an age thing too because so I watched the pilot last night and her hair is it's in all of these tiny tiny braids I'm like whose fingers did this insane how long does it take so long I mean it looked hours hours literal hours it was fantastic but because I watched Sister X2 yeah to me Lauren Hill that was who maybe Brandy walked so Lauren Hill could run with her with the braids. I don't know I'd have to look up the timing but it was interesting because I didn't realize that Brandy was the first black actress or black celebrity to really rock the braids.

SPEAKER_00 32:09

Yeah I wonder if it was time wise too like when she well I don't know I guess she would have been on our radar by that point when she was still doing the braids because I do feel like when I saw pictures of her in later years like maybe when she by the time she was in her mid-20s she had transitioned to using more like of a straight style let me see or maybe or maybe it's just that I'm like familiar with the pictures I've seen of her in recent years where her hair is um like on not braided.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Yeah like on her memoir cover. Does she have braids as in Cinderella? See I don't remember oh she has the braids at least at the crown of her head oh yeah she does look at that yeah I love that she wrote this part and then what I was missing was the flip side of it. Like what did it feel like to did she feel pressure to keep the braids for a really long time? What did it feel like when she wanted to go with a different look again it's just like things were yeah not fully explored or developed sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 33:03

Yeah I know what you mean. I mean I she and she did talk about you know feeling sort of pigeonholed by decisions about or decisions that sounds like were kind of made for her about her image when she was younger that then were hard to break out of but yeah I don't know I wanna I wonder if that was part of it too or not.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Yeah. Okay so let's talk a little bit more about singing in church. She writes church is where I first unraveled the intricacies of my voice. It was where I learned how to let my voice soar above the rest when it was my turn to shine and how to tuck it neatly into the fabric of the collective when it wasn't. It made me think of you like how did you first discover your talent did you go to church growing up did you sing at church?

SPEAKER_00 33:43

I did go to church growing up but I don't recall ever singing at church. It it had nothing I I just came into the world singing by my mother's description sort of like truly from as young of an age as I can remember I loved to sing. I was always singing and I mean I was begging my mom for voice like singing lessons by the time I was probably nine or 10 and like she made me wait till I was about 12. I wonder why I think she did call some voice teachers but they all said I was too young. They felt like I was too young which I feel like people might view that differently now but the one I specifically wanted to work with like that my mom had kind of told me about some different people she said she wouldn't start before age 12. And now looking back on it I appreciate it because I feel like even just starting that young you're much more prone to burnout. Like anything you start at that young age I mean it's it's hard. It's hard to have something like that shift with your identity as you do get older and come into who you are and I think there are benefits to waiting sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

I loved singing at church I never you know so grew up Catholic but there was this freedom I I mean most people are just kind of like mumble singing there was no we did it was not a sister act situation. We did not have this like amazing choir of nuns. Later on when I was in high school we kind of had like more of a youth group and and the song should be a little bit more like rockish how however rockish Catholic songs could be but there was just something about this idea that you weren't just singing for yourself. Like you were it was like a it was a prayer it was a rejoicing it was yeah you know it and it's so it didn't matter what you sounded like and totally I don't know there's something so beautiful too I think about music like it's so it's empowering and it's moving and it's like in your entire body and what a beautiful thing for her to have grown up yeah this way. And her dad just seemed to trust her and give her confidence and independence like you said. Yeah you know taking control of a choir at 10 years old. Like that's not easy.

SPEAKER_00 35:46

I really found the story interesting that he was such a big part of her story early on and like moving and shaping her direction. And then we don't hear about him very much after she's actually out there and and I wonder if it you know maybe he had to continue working or I mean I'm sure probably like had to continue working and but yeah I just kind of wanted him more involved like so right. I was like he was such a stabilizing force for her and like such a believer in her that I just wanted him to like pop his head and be like it's gonna be okay you're amazing like don't give up.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

A thousand percent especially when it comes to her mom. It feels like both of her parents were very confident in her ability and wanted very much for her to explore being a singer and like doing everything that they could to help that happen. And then when it was happening and her mom became her manager, there must have been conflict there. Yeah I'm sure that is really interesting. Maybe he just kind of helped cultivate her voice and then and what another thing that which we'll well I guess we'll get into it now. Her brother was attempting his own career and I would say like we'll know Ray J's name I mean for reasons other than maybe his singing right she has sort of one chapter where she's like oh man like I loved him so I love him so much. Like I I didn't want it to be a competition between us like I would have given everything for my brother to make it and then that's kind of it too there's no I'm sorry if your brother is potentially like the reason the Kardashians fucking exist I need a little bit of your opinion on that.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

I know right I wanted to know what she thought too. Yes. This is a hot topic but maybe she was like that's not my story to tell which that you know I can respect if she's like that was his experience and his you know I don't know I feel like that was her and she's gonna release a book about it at some point and she doesn't want to give away all the good juicy detail.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

But nothing she gave us nothing she pretended it didn't even happen.

SPEAKER_00 37:49

Yeah the Kardashian she that was a clear to me that was a very clear choice.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

And for whatever reason she made that choice it made me wonder what else she was holding back though is all I'm saying. Like I'm sorry you're super close with your brother and then he creates Kim Kardashian and the Kardashians have for for better, for worse been one of the most influential families over the past 10 years at this point. Yeah come on girl like give us something something that would have been very juicy that would have helped I think people would have flocked to her book to make that absolutely and I definitely understand it's her story and her truth but like I don't know if your sibling did something like that I think it'd have some on it yeah it could still be more focused around just her experience of the kind of free how wild was it that yeah totally um but getting back to church this is also where it seemed that she understood the burden of this gift she has a solo at a very young age but she's feeling nervous and she can't sing. Someone calls out to her take your time the Lord ain't in a hurry which is very love that I love that too. But Brandy writes quote this wave of encouragement somehow only made the pressure more suffocating this was my first awareness of what it meant to have expectations placed upon your shoulders how even the kindest intentions could feel like concrete blocks when you weren't ready to carry them. And I felt like this was just major foreshadowing to her role as Moesha probably even the pressure she felt for each subsequent album to not only outperform the last one, but to be like redefining somehow because that's that's right, that's what I gathered too. It wasn't like I just want to make good music. It's like my album has to be at the forefront of the new type of music it needed to be genre and barrier breaking. And this is where this is another part where I wish she would have gone further into this she keeps talking throughout her memoir of the about the pressure and feeling worn out but I wanted more of her like I I can imagine and she dances around it which is why I'm like just give it to me like as a young black woman she had to present herself a certain way. Yeah it just seemed like there was a really huge weight that she like acknowledges here and there. Like and she does also say that she felt like other women had paved the way for her a little bit but I don't know did you did you also pick up on that or am I just am I just like expecting too much from this memoir? I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 40:15

When I was reading it I felt like a lot of just the kind of overworking of her was probably at least in part due to kind of you know there's kind of that saying that like a black person has to work twice as hard as a white person to to achieve the same. And I feel like that was probably at least somewhat contributing and and I probably even motivated her her mother to you know maybe not maybe not set a boundary as soon as she should have because she knew like she has to work harder you know or or had kind of had that belief or that feeling and so I feel like it's in there but you're right. It's not like she's ever really overtly saying it or connecting to it or and maybe she just kind of decided you know what I can't control that. Like that may be true but there's no point in focusing on it was something that I just can't control. And maybe she didn't feel like I don't know there was any point in belaboring it if she had no control over the situation.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

But that seems to be how her parents modeled also working through their lives and how they encouraged her to work through the industry. Like yeah you're black people won't like that but that's their burden to bear and not yours. But at the same time it still was her burden to bear. Totally and it almost broke her yeah on top of that I mean the industry is so fickle and fame is so fleeting like I totally understand. I think if I had been 10, 11, 12, I think she's 15 when she gets Moesha but she had had songs break out and she had been on Thea like I would be so afraid I would just feel like if I say no right what if I don't have another job?

SPEAKER_00 41:47

What if she's not only you know she's black she's a woman and she's a child. She has three high things that make her highly vulnerable to being preyed upon really which is what to me she ultimately was. And yeah I don't blame her for not I mean how can you she was a child she didn't even have a fully developed sense of self yet which I think is what the whole book was about basically is her just kind of flailing trying to find herself in the middle of everybody else telling her who she was.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

Yes yes okay so going back to her childhood it's it was peppered with a lot of bullying like physical bullying which definitely surprised me right I experienced I mean girls in my school were not nice but like they did not get physical in the way where right Brandy gets punched in the face she later she's like doing drill practice and this girl gets all up in her face and Brandy just kind of does the thing where she's trying to be the bigger person as her parents have taught her and as she just kind of seems to be she doesn't want to meet violence with violence but this girl is just unrelenting and it's embarrassing at a certain point. And I think something clicks in Brandy's brain too where she's like this girl's not going to stop tormenting me just because I don't engage and don't react. So she takes extension cores and goes to her house and whips her with house like that. I was like yeah girl the sun there's this there's the fire yeah there's the fire I was like wow Brandy she's trying to break out of this like good girl persona that she I think very much I think it's a slippery slope right because I get it I am a good girl I enjoy being a good girl was I conditioned to be this way in a lot of ways yeah probably but I don't resent it I I'm trying to break through the things that I feel like are holding me back in my life and I'm trying to you know model different ways to be for my for my daughter but I think being a good person is an okay thing to be being a bigger person is an okay thing to be and it just feels like she had these moments in her childhood where she was able to say like look see I didn't always do the right thing. I wasn't always just this really like moldable or restricted person. And then I was missing those later in her life or I I was at least missing the acknowledgement that like I got to make mistakes I mean, she did, she does write. Like, I I didn't feel like I could make mistakes. I did feel like I had to be good. I guess, and maybe a part of it was because it was co-written by a man. It's just like a man, no matter how great of a writer you are, like a man will never be able to understand what it is like to be a young woman in the world. And I wonder if there's something to that. Because again, it's like her memoir just fell short sometimes with some of that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 44:28

You know, she touches on at one point that her brother starts wearing gang colors or something, and then they like move him away. And you know, so I didn't necessarily get a sense of, I mean, by these individual interactions, I got a sense that okay, there's like some violence in this community. How safe are we on a daily basis in this community? To me, I was kind of like, maybe she still was like as good as you can be when you're living in like potentially dangerous, violent conditions. Like at some point, you gotta have some fight in you. If you're if you're on the receiving end of potentially, you know, some pretty severe violence, like I don't know. I hope my daughter would fight back. This is not a situation where like ignoring the problem makes it go away.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

You just become an easier target.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

Look, I don't want to be a person that's like, yeah, meet violence with violence, but I totally understood where she was coming from here. And it did feel like she kind of had no other choice. Right. But it's like, where were her parents? Like there are these strong foundational, but like she doesn't talk about really telling her parents about these things. It was like Lord of the Flies until the parents were home. But then I was like, but your dad's a minister of music. How is that a nine to five job? I know, I know. Again, there were just like some holes in there, which you know, right. I understand in memoir you have to like pick and choose what you want to tell. And like it's not the ultimate truth, it's not the whole truth. These women are still telling us only what they want us to hear. Just again, it's just like I just wanted a little bit more. I think what was so frustrating was that like there was so much stuff, but then there wasn't like the reflections about it. Right.

SPEAKER_02 46:01

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

You know, I like I would have loved to see her ref reflect a little bit more on the extension cord incident or or getting punched in the face by that kid and like especially her mother's reaction to that.

SPEAKER_01 46:12

Like yeah, and wouldn't she be curious if we had experienced what Brandy had experienced? I would be curious now, mom. What were you feeling during that time? Like, were you feeling helpless? I don't know. Again, it just didn't go that step further, which I would have liked. And yeah, there was a little bit like, and then this story happened, and then this story happened, and then this story happened. You're like, okay, but how did that make you feel? How did that change you? Like, what are you hoping to be to do differently for your kid? Or I I don't know, the wild story of the other bully who was murdered over the summer after Brandy like prayed for her to go away.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

Did she just have so many of these like kind of mind-boggling little incidents to share? Like, I personally would have enjoyed more digging into those stories than I did about all her recording. Not that I wasn't interested in the recording stuff, but I thought her just her childhood and upbringing, that kind of coming of age, you know, that element of it was what really captured me. Me too. More so than the nitty-gritty behind all the recording details.

SPEAKER_01 47:12

I am with you 100,000 percent. That's exactly what it was for me too, especially like going from that world to Hollywood, a set and a studio. I just, that's what I wanted more of. You get pegged in this industry very fast.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

Yeah. And probably more so for her being black and the RB, you know, I'm sure it was like, well, you're not a Whitney, so now you're this. Like totally.

SPEAKER_01 47:34

And it feels so hard. Like you want to be authentic, you want to be true to yourself, but you also want to stay relevant and you want to stay popular. And they're telling you this is what you need to do to do it.

unknown 47:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:43

But I feel like you and I are having more discussion and discourse about it than like she did in her book.

SPEAKER_00 47:48

So yeah, a little bit.

Fame Machine Harassment Gatekeeping

SPEAKER_01 47:49

But I mean, she did go through a lot. So maybe a part of it is just like getting through the stories. But let's talk about her finding fame. Her big dream is to have a record deal and also to meet Whitney Houston. She and her brother start doing the showcases. She writes, at 10, all I felt was hope and excitement. Talent showcases became my sanctuary, a temple outside of church where I worshipped at the altar of possibility.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Did you ever do showcases or anything like that? A few, yeah. Um, I can remember, I'm trying to remember if I did, I did at least one or two that were sort of singing-oriented showcases. I mean, I don't really understand how they could become her sanctuary because I never felt I always just felt like pressured and like, you know, I don't know. I don't think I ever felt that they were a temple of possibility for me.

SPEAKER_01 48:35

Well, I think that she wanted this dream so badly. She had such a narrowed focus, and I think she was propped up by her parents so much. I don't think it ever occurred to her that it wouldn't happen in that way where that where when you're a child, you just think anything's possible, especially if your parents are constantly being like, Brandy, you're gonna make it, Brandy, you're gonna make it, Brandy, you're gonna make it. So she's discovered by this man, Chris, who is also representing immature, this young boy band at the time, a very young Marquis Houston from aka Roger from Sisters to Stare, which is one of my favorite shows growing up. If she talks about them being like nine years old, I was like, what the? I just don't think I would ever let my nine-year-olds. I mean, the chances are the chances of someone at that young of age having a popular career and then having a sustaining career. Right. It's wild, it's wild, it's wild.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

And then there are so many examples of children in that industry who grow up to have drug problems, major problems, mental health issues, teacher. I know. As a parent, I'm like, oh, I'd have to put lots of limits around everything to see my child want to do something like that. I don't know. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 49:45

But so Brandy is like hanging out with the boys one night, and one of them starts groping her. Oh my gosh. And she's does that thing that we all do where you freeze. And then I love that she said fear gave way to fury, and she starts like yelling at them, they're cracking up, and she gets so pet, she throws a book at one of them and it scratches his cornea. Yeah, but the wrong one, Alex.

SPEAKER_00 50:08

I know the wrong one. Not even the kid who was groping her.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

It was kind of do you ever recall like just being in a very uncomfortable situation like that growing up?

SPEAKER_00 50:18

There were some like unwelcome advances and things of that nature, but I to me, what gets me with that is like, where were these boys' parents? That's the part of this, and these children involved in these worlds, like they're exposed to too much too soon, and then nobody's guiding them morally, like nobody's giving them any sense of right and wrong or something. And doesn't she write about like the lyrics they were singing? I mean, it's it's like ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 50:43

They're very sexualized from yeah, and it's just really sad. It is really sad. For all that we just talked about, with like what fame and stardom has done to people. Like, Brandy does seem to be a very grounded individual.

SPEAKER_00 50:57

Yeah, honestly, it's remarkable that she is where she is now, I think, having gone through all of it.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

Okay, so Brandy's career is going and she decides to enroll in Hollywood High School where she's not getting any solos. And she's like, wait a second, I know I'm talented. What's happening? And she starts to notice a pattern. Lots of the white blonde girls were getting propped up to launch into Hollywood. I guess there was like a person connecting high school students, like casting directors. I was like, this is wild.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

I was like, What?

SPEAKER_01 51:26

In what world is the it's a feeder. It was a when you do drive by Hollywood High School. I mean, she talked about being on the mural herself. Like, there are a lot of very notable people who probably didn't graduate from Hollywood High School, but passed through the halls for sure. Yeah, sure. And she writes, I was a black girl from a black neighborhood going to a school where there were very few girls who looked like me. And her mother tells her this focus on you, on your growth, on becoming the best Brandy Norwood you can be. The rest will follow. Which I appreciated a lot of that sentence. Yeah. She also says this never make being black an excuse. You can do whatever you put your mind to. Everything will happen for you as it should. There will be people who don't want you to succeed because of the color of your skin, but that's their burden to bear, not yours. And she goes further into this is a lengthier thing on page 84. And while I do appreciate what her mom is doing here, I think one of the most important lessons we can tell our kids is that life isn't fair, but that doesn't mean that you can't be the best version of yourself. Yeah. Did it work out for Brandy? Did she get the album? Did she get the TV show? Yes. But it might not have. Right. And what does all of this that her parents are saying to her? What would that have made her feel about herself had she not gotten Moesha, had she not gotten Fia? That was one thing where I was like, racism is real. Gatekeeping is real. And she does go on to experience that in the industry. Is it healthy to encourage kids that determine an excellence can overcome any barrier when that's not realistic?

SPEAKER_00 53:04

I know. I think about that a lot too. I'm like, because you do, I feel like I hear these stories a lot of celebrities or people who've, you know, exceeded all expectations of like, well, my mom told me, you know, I could do anything I set my mind to. My mom told me that too. And I think that actually was a very common millennial experience. I will say that. Like, I think that's sort of the overarching theme of millennials, is we were all told, you know, just go to college. You'll be great. You'll be successful. You'll have so much money. You'll, you know, whatever. And obviously we all know now that that really isn't true. Like just going to college or, you know, was not the key to success. But in this case, I feel like it does serve a purpose for those particular people because it literally makes them so like kind of deluded into like not seeing any of the possibility that it won't happen, that they just maintain that single-minded focus on their goal. And so they're not as maybe as distracted by what is ultimately reality that's probably peeking in here and there, kind of. Yeah. But like you said, it easily, regardless of any of that, it easily could not pan out. And there are probably for every, you know, Brandy story, there's probably nine or ten other stories of people who also were told the same things who didn't make it and you know, have to experience that come down of like, oh, okay, now what?

SPEAKER_01 54:22

I mean, she even talks about when she's first um discovered by Chris, he tries to put her in a girl band. And then she's singled out by the record executive saying, you know, come back when you're a little bit older. Yeah, but just you. So those other two girls, like you watch their dreams puff up in smoke. Um, and I think I would have also just loved because Brandy talks about going to visit McComb and the sanctuary that it was for her. And like her parents, like you said, very much that was a choice that they made, right? To to shield Brandy and Ray J from racism and the rippling effects. But like her parents must have experienced a different, like, you know whose memoir I want? Brandy's mom's.

SPEAKER_00 55:00

I want I want her mom's memoirs so bad.

Parenting Self Worth Burnout Mom Manager

SPEAKER_01 55:04

Yeah, and it's just like those would be fascinating. Like your daughter is a star, and then especially when it comes to her, you know, and being her manager, tell me more. I mean, with your kids, do you tell them like your dream, all your dreams will come true? I've I'm very quick to remind my daughter that like life isn't fair. And she started to experience in very low-stakes situations that life isn't fair. And I'm like, it's not, but that doesn't mean that it can't be beautiful and that it can't be good and that you can't go for what you want.

SPEAKER_00 55:33

You know, I feel like with my son, because my daughter's too young, but my son is 12, soon to be 13. And so some of these topics have started to come up. And I really focus on, it's funny because I feel like it's like could be the thesis statement of her whole book, but I really focus on just like loving yourself for who you are, being true to yourself, like let that be the guide, let that be the thing that centers you, whatever it is, and just accept yourself. Like, you know, he he has a lot of things come up where, you know, well, I'm this way and the other kids are like that, or you know, I'm different because of this, or I don't have a, you know, sport that I play really well, or and it's like that's fine because that's what you like and that's what you don't like, and that's who you are, and you don't have to be anything different from exactly what you are, and just if you can get to that place of just raw acceptance, and obviously like pushing yourself to be the best version of yourself, but ultimately like we're all gonna be ourselves and trying to, I don't know, pick package ourselves in some way to be accepted is never gonna turn out well. So I just try to operate from that perspective, and then at some point he can figure out what's realistic and what's not, and you know, if he comes to me with wild dreams, then I don't know, I'll probably give him a little dose of reality.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

Yeah, it's kind of like life is a series of choices and choices have consequences, good or bad. And then it's just up to you whether you can keep going down a path, you know. Like I've had definite times where when my career before before the kids, like when it was in a lower moment, Pat would be like, You can't keep doing this if like this is how you're going to live your life in between jobs. Like you're killing yourself, like you're you're you're upset all the time because you've associated your worth and your value with like booking jobs, you know? And and so I kinda had to be like, okay, I've got to develop some mental fortitude. Like I've got to make the shift within myself if I'm gonna keep doing this, or else I'm just gonna have a really shitty life, like a really bitter, resentful life. Yeah, you know, and so it is about going deep and going inward.

SPEAKER_00 57:32

And the other thing I think I would say is like just because the journey doesn't end in like super stardom or ultra success doesn't mean the journey was wrong, like or wasn't worth it. Yeah. There there were probably, even if she hadn't had the success she had, there would be still so many valuable things that she would have gotten from all of those experiences that the outcome doesn't have to be kind of what what makes us decide, oh, it was totally worth it, or oh, you made it. Like maybe she can be making it right in that moment when she's having these amazing experiences that are helping her grow as a person or become who she's gonna be, or you know.

SPEAKER_01 58:09

Also to that, like you don't know when the journey's over. So I mean, she could still very much just be in her journey right now, and everything that she has gone through, the failures and the successes, has gotten her to be. I mean, it sounds like she had a beautiful, she has a beautiful relationship with her daughter, and she was able to be the type of mother that she wanted to be for her daughter. Again, I wish we would have gotten more of that, a lot more of that. That to me would also have been a very beautiful thing for her to have explored in her memoir. The motherhood phase a little bit more than we kind of just get her like being pregnant and having a child. I mean, I think that that's just life is a series of choices, and you make the choice, and then you make the most of that choice. Yeah. That's all you can do. That's all you can do, and it really is up to you. Like, you can. I just had a discussion with uh with an author, and I was editing our episode, and it'll come out next week. Um, but she says, like, life is either a series of miracles or it's not, and it's like up to you to decide how to see it. And I think that's such a great lesson that you're that you're teaching your son. Like you are amazing, but at the end of the day, the only person who really needs to believe that is you. You can't force other people to see that. And when you are comfortable in your own skin, then you can just kind of take life as it comes and approach it from a way healthier place. Yeah. All right, back to Brandy. She gets into this very uncomfortable dating scene with Wanya. Um, he is a singer for Boys to Men. She's opening for them on tour. Uh it's obvious he's grooming her when he brings her flower. It was just like, I didn't know that they dated. And so as I was reading it, I was like, this is making me uncomfortable. And then she's like, and then we dated and I had sex with him. And then, you know, he wouldn't basically commit to me, and I had to page him and then he would call me back. I don't know. It was weird because it was clear that she wasn't valuing herself in a very big way with the men that she chooses to have as partners. But again, there was no like introspection on like why that was. It was just like, and then this guy sucked, and then that guy sucked. And look, like these guys really did suck. She's also in a pretty abusive, manipulative relationship with like a backup dancer. And then even the father of her child like seems like a good guy, and it seems like their relationship just sort of fizzles out organically. And then he goes on the Wendy Williams show and says that Brandy was basically his mistress. It was very bizarre, it was wild. But if I kept dating men like that or choosing men like that, I would go inward and be like, why? Especially if like her father seems like a very great guy.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:43

It's like, either tell me what it is, like what you feel like, either from your own, you know, self self-image or past experiences, like what led you to kind of end up in those situations and like to navigate them, or tell me, like very explicitly, it was their freaking fault. Yeah. They were all terrible people. Cause sometimes, honestly, I think there are a lot of like, I think there are a lot of duds out there as far as sometimes it can be hard to choose the right guy because sometimes they're just, you know, there's some bad ones out there, and especially I think in that industry where it's all about blitz and glamour and who's on my arm and who can elevate my status. And it's like, but like again, I think I would have liked to hear her because I feel like she does dance dance around it a little bit. And I would have liked to hear her explicitly state that, like, I do think she did it with Wanya a little bit. Like to me, that call out at the end of like he was an adult and I was a child. Like, I felt like she called that out adequately. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Some of these other situations, I was like, oh, why?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:42

Yeah, exactly. And I agree with you. I think that it seemed like she was especially by Wanya, and then the backup dancer, like incredibly loved bombed, and then there was kind of like this bait and switch that happened. And it was heartbreaking reading about the way that this backup dancer talked to her. I mean, he was so belittling to her at a time where she she was so vulnerable. Like she was already being overworked and she was like so afraid to say no, so afraid to mess up. But again, she wasn't putting those those dots together in a way that I feel like just would have made the memoir a little bit stronger, I think. That was the thing about this memoir. It had all the ingredients. It was just like ultimately something fell flat for me.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

There were like there were just some connections that I think weren't quite drawn, you know, at times. Yeah. Or maybe they were drawn. Like I would feel them drawn in like very simple little moments, like transitional moments, where it wasn't like, I don't know, like the last word of the chapter, sort of. Yeah. And you're like, oh, wait, more. Conclusion. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:39

Back to her TV career. She gets Moesha, which is a very fun story to read about how all of that happened. And her mom starts being her manager, and she just talks a lot about being burnt out, which we've we've talked about before. She writes about starting to like kind of resent her mom. But again, she doesn't go as deep into it as I would have appreciated, or even kind of really given like, wouldn't you have had a conversation with your mom about that now? Like, aren't you curious now? Like how and how did that affect you? And how did it affect your relationship? Right. It was weird. It was like my mom and I were not in a good place. And then it's later, it was like, and then my mom and I were like kind of okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

And I was like, oh, I kind of feel like there's some protection of her mother happening as she's writing this book. Like, as I'm reading it, I'm like, come on, like I know you had deeper criticism of your mother. Like at some point, you really probably were thinking, why didn't you protect me? I mean, that's what was going on in my mind the whole time is why aren't you protecting your daughter? Like, you need to step in. And like obviously, I can understand and rationalize. Like, I'm sure they had invested so much time and money and kind of both of them. I mean, basically her mother's career is tied in with her daughter's career. And it's like, you want to see your child live their dream, and you, you know, you might be willing to push them a little bit when they but at some point, like your child's having a full-on nervous breakdown here. Do you not feel guilty about that?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:04

I mean, I think that's why it is so it's not a good idea to mix business with family. I understand wanting to like keep that money in the family. I totally get that. But like Brandy's mom had not been a manager, right? Like she needed someone who could take care of her in a way that like that line just got crossed. It got, it was blurry because Brandy's mom didn't really know what she was doing either.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:29

Like, let's be real. I mean, I just wonder to what extent her mother even had the power to kind of put her foot down sometimes. She didn't have these relationships.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:38

No, she didn't. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:39

Yeah. And she didn't have that weight in the industry to say, no, like, we're not gonna do that. Or yes, she is gonna take the day off and you know, you're gonna reschedule that, or yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:49

Cause it's also your job as a parent to understand and be able to recognize your child's limitations. Like, of course, it makes sense to me that Brandy is saying yes to all this stuff. She is operating from a fear-based place, which I think a lot of young people do in the industry at first. I think people still operate from a fear-based place because you're always one job away from never working again, it feels like, you know, especially as a woman, especially as a young black woman. Like, I get all that. And so exactly Brandy's mother's job was to protect her, was to be able to navigate the industry in a way that she just didn't have the tools to do because she didn't have the relationships and she didn't have the history in the industry. And that's where it gets really tricky when moms and dads want to like manage their kids, and you're like, it's not that easy because it's not just it's not just like contract negotiations and logistics. It's relationships. It's seeing the bigger picture too. And if your kid burns out, there's no bigger picture. Right. Brandy's entire memoir just really made me reflect on like pop stars, especially young women. Do we like when they're pit against one another? She talks about a lot about how the media was like, You and Monica hate each other, right? And they're just both kind of like, no, but that's sort of why they do. The boy is mine. To kind of play into that. Um, does it feel like there can only be one person at the top? I mean, we've seen this play out even Christina versus Britney, Miley versus Taylor, now Taylor versus Olivia. We also force these women into stereotypes or tidy little molds. And then when they try to grow, we feel like, oh, she's trying something new, like what a try hard, like do what we like. Like it feels like such a tricky thing for a young person to navigate. Um, I can't even begin to imagine all the simultaneous pressures of feeling like you constantly have to reinvent yourself and stay fresh, but also be true to who you were. Do you think that we let pop princesses grow up to be queens?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:44

No. I mean, just no. I don't know. I feel like, especially like thinking about someone like Brandy or Brittany Spears or, you know, any of those kind of um created, you know, that were created by the machine, so to speak. It's largely, you know, creating an image and marketing and and I think the comparisons are definitely a part of it. Like I think they do it on purpose to create discussion, create, create conflict. And it feels really obvious to me now, looking back at like kind of the late 90s, early 2000s, you know, all of that discourse thinking about like Britney, Christina Aguilera, Jessica Simpson, and all of that, like those kind of fake rivalries, Paris Hilton, you know, all that fake rivalry drama, like it looks really fake. It's like it's it's like the hills and like the final scene of the hills, you know, the green screen or whatever. And like, yeah, I don't know. It's I feel like as a consumer or just as a general person in the general public, it's disappointing. It feels inauthentic, you know. And I think Gen Z in particular is very much more in Gen Y. Gen Gen Alpha? Gen Y Gen Alpha?

SPEAKER_02 1:07:58

I think they're Gen.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:00

I think they're Gen Alpha. Yeah. I think they're they're much more conscious of authenticity. And so I like to think that that won't per be perpetuated as much. And alongside just the ability as for an individual to go out there and create content and pro present it to the world to be consumed however it's going to naturally be consumed, I think gives some more options so that this type of thing doesn't happen. Cause it seems sad what happens to all of these women. I mean, it and it really feels almost universal.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:29

Yeah, it's like once we all really come to understand that you don't have to tear someone down in order to lift yourself up. Yeah. And I'm not saying Brandy. I mean, Brandy actually writes about trying not to do this. Like the media was doing it for her. Sure. But it just it seems like such a hard thing to navigate when at the same time you're just trying your best to like make music that you're proud of and that feels like is something that is authentic to you, but is also going to be widely received and well loved. Yeah. It was heartbreaking when she writes about one of her albums and she felt like it was so true to her. And then, like, she reads one of the criticisms, and they it said, Brandy seems to be a very good girl who does very good things. Brandy has suffered for this good reputation. She writes, Some people didn't like what I represented, this image of perfection that felt unattainable, unrealistic. And the truth is, I didn't always like it much either. I was preserved in a fleeting glimpse of innocence that no longer reflected who I was becoming, unallowed to make mistakes, to get it wrong and learn from those experiences. I wanted to be liked. I also wanted the career I had. If I'd stumbled or fucked up even once, would my career have ascended to what it had? Would TV executives had wanted to green light a family sitcom with me at the center? Would Disney have made me their first black princess? Would the dolls or the endorsement deals or sponsorships have happened? So she asks all these questions, but then she doesn't answer it. And that's what I wanted. I wanted her to be like, I don't think it would have. I had felt I felt so much pressure being a young black person in the industry. And like she cut, like again, she dances around it. But I think I just wanted it her to be explicit. I think I wanted it to feel like Brandy was sitting across from me, like, and we were having an intimate conversation. You know, like so many memoirs do, like it feels very raw and vulnerable and intimate. And she has those moments for sure. Overall, it was like you bring up so many good points, but then you don't give us like your opinions and reflections.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:35

I like want her to bring down the hammer, kind of. Yes, me too. For me, I like I want to hear her ask the question and then bring down the fucking hammer. Like she did with mom. Yeah, like she did with mom. No, I wouldn't have. I would have ended up back, you know, home with my parents, just living the same old life. And you also know it.

Body Image Fatal Crash Motherhood

SPEAKER_01 1:10:52

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Because like she's dancing around that. Um, and I also think it's tricky being 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, especially those years where like you are a young girl and you are innocent, and then like you have sex and you're exploring your sexuality, but like under the male gaze. And it's like, what does that even mean? And it's like, come on, Brandy, like, give us more. Because she is in such a good place now, it felt like she actually was one of the few women who really could give that interest. Because like Brittany Spears' memoir, like she kind of goes there, but she but like who she is now, it just kind of undermines so much of what she said in a way that's really heartbreaking. And if Brandy just had an opportunity here that I think she doesn't make the most of, and it could be by design. This is her memoir, these are this is her choice. She gets to share whatever truths she wants and she gets to reflect on what she wants. She didn't go there as much for me. There were two really powerful chapters Cover Girl, where she shares the impact of chasing body perfection in a really strong and powerful way. She has all those like numbers. I do feel like it could, it's interesting because I appreciate what she does here. And like I said, it's one of the most powerful chapters, but it almost could have been like triggering if you had an eating disorder. Yeah. Yeah, this is what it felt like. And ooh, does it still kind of feel like this? And ooh, do I still kind of feel like this? And hadn't ever felt that way when I was reading a memoir about someone discussing their body dysmorphia and anorexia. So I thought that was weird. It could just be me and where I am in my life, maybe. I don't know. But I was like, there's something triggering about this, and I don't know why.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:30

It was just so clearly her, I don't know, her thought process and like the way that the thoughts flowed was laid out in a way that I felt like was very easy to access, sort of like, yeah, oh yeah, like that's exactly what goes on in your mind.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:44

Yeah. And then the other really powerful chapter was Lucid Dreams, which, okay, so I was telling our friend Lizzie, I was reading this book and doing it with you, and she was like, ooh, is she gonna talk about her car accident where she killed someone? And I was like, what, Brandy was in a car accident where she killed someone? Um, I thought that this chapter was actually handled really well. I thought she really did balance that line between acknowledging I was involved in a situation where someone lost their life. And yeah, it kind of was to no faults of my own, but I do feel at fault and I do feel guilty, but I want to honor them and I don't want to make this about me, but yeah, this is my memoir. I don't know, it's a very tricky thing. I thought she had I don't know how she could have handled it better.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:25

That just seems like an incredibly difficult thing to process. I don't, I have no notes.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:29

And then she writes about the birth of her daughter towards the end of her memoir, and this is the turning point. I think at that point too, it felt like her musical career was not shaping up the way that she had wanted it to be. I think people still probably would have continued making music with her. It's weird, it's like she didn't explicitly say I took a step back from the industry. So you're not sure. Like, did the industry kick you out? Like, did was nobody, you know, Moesha's canceled. I mean, I guess she sort of felt like because she got pregnant at a young age and didn't marry the father, that she had sort of blown up this persona that she had created in Hollywood. But then again, it wasn't like, I mean, I'm sure people were still approaching Brandy to be in stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:09

You would think so. I mean, so she said she got dropped by her label after her record didn't have a lot of commercial success. I don't know. I wonder if just that alone was enough of a quote unquote failure to her that she just sort of was needed to lick her wounds for a little bit. Maybe, yeah. Andor, I mean, wanted to raise her daughter, you know. Maybe she was like, it's too much. Like this is, you know, this is a good time to step back. I'm gonna go ahead and do it for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:39

Yeah, I mean, and I think it was a big betrayal, the father of her daughter going on Wendy Williams, and she was just like, wait a second, this is a really fucked up industry and media landscape. And yeah, I don't think I want to raise my daughter this way. Um I think it's just like I needed her, maybe I just needed her to connect a little bit more dots for me. I felt like I was projecting a lot of my own stuff onto her memoir, which might have been right, might have not been right. Did you decide to step back? Did you feel like you had no other choice? Like I again, I just wanted more. But it sounds like she built something really beautiful for her daughter. And through her daughter, she found a confidence and a strength that I think can happen to women when they become mothers.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:19

Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Comeback Hopes Final Verdict Goodbye

SPEAKER_01 1:15:21

She writes, I found freedom in the sting of disapproval. A strange new power emerged, no longer the perfect polished role model. I could finally exist in the world exactly as I was, perfectly human, which is always a good place to be. Yeah. So how is she ready to come back potentially showing the perfectly human, confident, strong woman who doesn't need to be a good girl anymore? She's a woman, she's a woman who's grown into herself. She has a new single out. It's called Intention with Ty Dollassign. It's kind of a bop. Okay. It's nothing, it's not something where I was like, oh yeah, but it was like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:56

I'm like, Brandy. I don't want a little bop though. Like, I really want her depth. Give me your moon, Brandy. Give me your moon. Give me the ballads. Like, use that beautiful voice. Because I'm sorry, like a beautiful voice is wasted on catchy little RB tunes or you know, a pop, even a pop hit. Like, it's wasted. It's a waste. Like, give me something emotional, and you know. Yes, that's what I want.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:23

Me too.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:24

Me too. Brandy, if you're listening.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:28

Um she finishes the book with this. She writes, This book all began with a question. What would it mean to reclaim a life defined by others? No single phase of my life defines me. Not the wide-eyed teenagers signing her first contract, not the broken woman in a hospital gown, not the recluse hiding from the world. Okay, so there. It's like, so you did recluse. Like, tell us more. Not the combat queen rising from the ashes. I am all of these women and none of them. I am the through line that connects them, the consciousness that experienced them, the soul that survived them. Again, a lot there. I think I just I just needed more. I needed more. I I would still recommend this memoir. I think if you're a fan of Brandy, there's some fun anecdotes in here that you'll enjoy, but don't go into it, I think, expecting to get a clearer answers or even a clearer view of like who she really was going through this. I think she she fell back into the I was burnt out, I was burnt out, I was burnt out a lot. Even that last phrase, it's like, okay, a recluse. Like that's a person hiding from the world. Right. And you literally talk about that in the last four pages of your book.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:43

Yeah, I could have enjoyed some pages on that.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:46

Yes. Did you feel like a failure? How did you pick yourself up from the ashes? I wanted more, but I do hope that this is a new beginning for Brandy. I l I like her, I loved her and I still know what you did last summer. I love that she wrote, had it written in her contract that she her character could not die because black, she wanted to be like a black woman who didn't die in a horror movie. You know, like she did do these things that I think helped set up for the women behind her. I think there's more to her story, and I hope that I hope that she finds what she's looking for. And I hope that if she writes another memoir, she uh really lets it all out this time.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:25

Yeah, I am Brandy. Hear me roar. I would recommend it. I mean, and especially as somebody who, you know, tied in with the music industry, like had a music background. I thought it was really fun to read at times, but also like there was a good emotional journey. Like I really did enjoy the book. Even if I feel like, yeah, like you, like there was something missing or just not quite fully fleshed out at times. And maybe that is because her story's just really not over yet. Like she's in this kind of transitional phase of maybe making a comeback. And so she like she can't really fully draw conclusions because we're not there yet. Which is an interesting place to approach a memoir from. I don't know if I like that. Yeah. Somebody probably told her it would be a good way to launch her comeback, is my guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:10

Yeah, that's not my favorite thing, but I still find value in the memoir. I really do. That I don't feel like this was a complete cash grab or like comeback setup.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:19

So we'll put it at that. And or maybe like it was part of the way she processed it all, like to actually sit down and write down her whole story. I mean, I haven't really done that even with my own life, like thought back over every event and tried to see how they all culminate. And so to actually sit down and organize it all and think through these like pivotal events and how they've impacted you. I mean, might have just been self-therapy, you know? True.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:42

Well, thank you, Kate, for joining me today. Thank you for being super fast reader/slash listener to robot lady guy. We'll have you again on the show very soon. I love you very much. Thank you. I can't wait to be back. Bye. Bye. Thank you so much for listening. Speaking of being good, next week, Carrie Doherty joins the show to discuss her new memoir, Selfish. It's her unflinching account of what happens when a woman finally stops drinking and starts asking, What do I actually want? We're getting into all of it: marriage, motherhood, ambition, and the musician who helped her remember who she was. Until then, take care of the microphone.