Babes in Bookland: Your Women's Memoir Podcast
Women have always written extraordinary memoirs. We just haven't always talked about them loudly enough — until now. Babes in Bookland is a podcast dedicated entirely to memoirs by women, for women who are hungry for honest storytelling, big feelings, and real lives on the page. Each episode is part book discussion, part cultural conversation, and entirely unapologetic about centering women's experiences. Think of us as your most well-read friend who always knows exactly which book you need next.
Babes in Bookland: Your Women's Memoir Podcast
AUTHOR CHAT: Katya Dunko's "I Drank From the Nile"
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Is life destiny or choice?
"Drink from the Nile" is a phrase in Egypt that promises if you drink from the Nile river, you’re destined to return. Katya Dunko's memoir, named for this phrase, is her refusal to let destiny be controlled by generational trauma. She broke the chain.
We talk about the real story behind her jaw-dropping book: growing up in post-Soviet Ukraine, being stowed away on a train as a child, surviving a decade of opioid addiction, and later fleeing an abusive marriage in Egypt with her daughter. Katya doesn’t frame herself as flawless or “inspiring” in a neat way. She names the shame, the people-pleasing, the desperate search for love, and the terrifying moments where her safety is on the line. If you care about women’s memoir, addiction recovery stories, trauma healing, and what it takes to rebuild after emotional abuse, this conversation goes there with honesty and heart.
We also get practical about the craft and the aftermath: what it’s like to spend seven years writing a trauma memoir, why she chose a pen name, how self-publishing forced her to learn everything from editing to marketing, and why narrative therapy helped her reframe her past into resilience instead of ruin. The biggest takeaway is simple and hard: pain spreads unless someone breaks the chain.
Listen, then share this with a friend who needs a reminder that a clean slate is possible. Subscribe, leave a review, and tell us what “real strength” means to you now.
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Xx, Alex
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Welcome And Katya’s Story Preview
SPEAKER_01Welcome back to Babes in Bookland, your women's memoir podcast. I'm your host, Alex Franca. Today's guest stowed away on a train as a child, survived a decade of opioid addiction, fled an abusive marriage in Egypt with nothing but her daughter and her will to survive, and then sat down and wrote every single word of it. Katya Dunko's memoir, I Drank from the Nile, is one of the most jaw-dropping, gut-punching stories I have ever read. It spans four years in four countries, and it will not let you go. But here's what stayed with me the most. This is not a story about what happened to her. It's a story about what she chose to do next. Because somebody has to break the chain, and Katya broke it! Hello, Katya. Thank you for coming on the show. Alex, thank you. It's also awesome to be here. I found your memoir so compelling with many moments that left my heart broken and my jaw on the floor. You don't shy away from exposing your darkest thoughts and experiences, and you take accountability for so much. But I think your memoir is also your journey of realizing that you were attempting to carry many weights that weren't yours to bear. The weight of you trying to prove your worth to people who should have been proving theirs to you, the weight of an extremely traumatic childhood without the tools to process what had happened to you and that it wasn't your fault, the weight of a toxic relationship with strength, and a damaging idea of what it means to be strong in this world. The weight of love, wanting it, deserving it, but not feeling like you deserve it. Ultimately, you learn that your worth can't be found in others, that loving yourself is the most important love, that recognizing and accepting that horrible, traumatic things happen to you doesn't mean that you are weak, but is actually a sign of strength and the first step towards healing and resilience. And through your memoir, we're reminded of all of this too. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. It was very moving. And I am I'm so excited to talk with you about it today.
SPEAKER_00Me too. Thank you. That was a really good analysis of it. You hit it right on the spot. So I my message is conveyed. So thank you for that too.
Why Tell It As Memoir
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Okay, so before we get into the meat of the memoir, I'd love to talk about your process. You let us in on it a little bit. You said that it took you seven years to write this memoir. Did you ever think about writing it as a fictionalized novel at any point? Kind of hiding behind your story instead of, you know, fully exposing yourself. And let's just, for our listeners, you you got married. He's an Egyptian, and you left Egypt with your daughter without his permission. And that's what you were talking about, the guilt and the trouble. And we'll get in more into that, but just so people are on the same page with us. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I did because it it kind of reads like just such a shocking story that it is almost made up. But interestingly, I started writing, you know, with my real name. So Katya Dunko is my pen name. And then when I realized that I don't have to use my real name, I was more inclined to write it as a memoir. Just for reasons like, you know, I can I can talk more about the reality of it because my story is so unconventional and there's a lot of trauma. So, you know, making it as a novel, it'd be like, oh, okay, that's really great imagination. But I'm like, but this really happened. Yeah. And so, you know, having a pen name for me as just a protection for for my for my daughter.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think I mean you're right. There are a lot of shocking moments. So there is such a power in you saying, guys, this is the truth. These things actually happened to me. I had to experience this, I had to move through this to be where I am now. And I think it can provide a lot of hope to people who are going through a lot of dark moments themselves who maybe don't see that light at the end of the tunnel. I think you you provide that light for them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I mean, I'm nobody special, and there's so many crazy and painful stories out there, realities that people live through. And so, you know, I would kind of do everybody else a dishonor if I didn't say that this is real. You know, a lot of people do shy from their traumatic past. And, you know, when I was spoken to a few of them, their stories are insane. I was like, you need to write a book. And so just by me showing that it's okay that you've if you have this bad past, that doesn't mean you're a terrible person. And I think a lot of people kind of, I can't generalize everyone, but there are a few that would be like, oh wow, I can't tell you where I came from because then you'll think, you know, she's messed up. She's yeah. So that's where I was at. And choosing to write it as a memoir felt felt right that I'm honoring the people that are are going through a lot of bad stuff, that it's, you know, you can't talk about it. It's okay. Here, I wrote a whole book about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah. I think that there's a lot of like internalizing and especially internalizing shame when you're right, a lot of people's traumatic experiences, things that happen to them, especially with you in your childhood, it's not your fault. Yet, like I said earlier, it's this weight that you feel is your burden to bear. And I think the more that women like you and people like you share your stories, the more that other people can realize, okay, that's not my weight to bear. That doesn't reflect me and who I am now and everything that I've worked to. In fact, it shows what a badass I am. I mean, I think you're a badass.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think, you know, we all love a strong person, but we don't really understand what made them a strong person. You know, we we don't, we will, we will compliment the hero or we'll we'll praise the hero, but the hero went through a lot of stuff to to become their own hero, right? Yeah, writing it was seven years, like you said. Uh, and there was a lot of points that I kind of wrote at the end. Just because I when I when I write, I had to put on that hat again and I had to like just it was a form of you know going back in time and just feeling everything, sight, smells. And I would be so in that lane that, you know, when it came time to be like, oh, I have to make dinner, and my reality was just still in the past. It was so hard to, you know, switch between the two because you have to relive it to tell it honestly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00That was really that was that was probably the the hardest part of writing this whole thing.
SPEAKER_01Did you come across like something that you could do to sort of like, all right, stop, Katya? I'm I'm done writing and now I'm back in, you know, mom mode or you know, person not writing the memoir mode. Was there anything that you found, or were you just still kind of like trudging through it?
SPEAKER_00I was actually about the first couple years doing it, you know, it was during COVID. That was not a good spot to do that, you know, because you're stuck inside the house. It kind of took me down a little lower, and there was a point that I stopped because I was like, this is just too painful. I'm the advocate of not being in the past, but how do you convey this story? Then about three years in, I I had a therapist. So I I told her, I was like, look, I'm writing a book about my life and my memoir, and I there's a lot of pain in the and so her and I, we every week we would we would meet up and she would help me. I just kind of lay it on her instead of just taking it out on someone else.
SPEAKER_01That is such good advice, I think. So you had someone kind of guiding you through these painful moments, and she was also able to kind of guide you out of them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, make help, professional help, mental help. There's nothing wrong with that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and you are the first person who's actually brought up using that tool like simultaneously while writing your memoir. And I'm kind of shocked by that because you're right, memoirs are exposing a lot of painful parts of our lives. And so I think that that's such a healthy way to approach it. Good for you, lady. That's incredible. Thanks. Was there anything that surprised you? You you write in your introduction that you kind of started off writing this memoir as revenge, but then it became so much more. So talk me through that process of how it surprised you as it unfolded for you.
SPEAKER_00Interestingly. So when I I, well, like I said, started writing in the beginning, and I wanted to make sense of did I do the right thing? Because I felt in a way I felt empowered that I left, but at the same time, I was a criminal and I felt guilty for what is to come or the, you know, with my daughter. So I was like, okay, am I a criminal? Like, well, I am. And so kind of dealing with all that guilt at that moment, I was like, no, let me go back and just write everything that happened. Everything from when I, you know, just just to make sense of, and he was also very manipulative and abusive. So for me to kind of just paint my world, am I crazy or did this just happen? So when I wrote it all down, I'm like, no, no, no, this happened. This is I'm not imagining this. Um, I just ran away and tried to, and I did, and I escaped. So what surprised me writing is first as as the revenge, and then I was like, you know, I can make this a real story. So when I got a literary coach, we had an interview and she's like, okay, what's it about? And I told her, she's like, wow. Uh I was like, yeah. So, but but but I was like, I don't want people to like me. She's like, What? It's like I don't, I don't want them to like me because they won't, because I I I made bad choices and I really wasn't in the right headspace. She's like, Well, you're the hero of the story. And I couldn't believe her. And so what I what I wrote was almost like it was embarrassing to write about a lot of my past and pain. But as I looked through it, she was right. I was the hero of my story. So I've had the strength all along.
SPEAKER_01To me, it almost sounds like you started off as a way to remind yourself of why you did what you did, to work through the manipulation that you experienced by this man and also maybe some of the other men in your life, which we'll get into. But through writing your memoir, you also came to recognize these solid truths about yourself that you are the hero of your own life. You gave us all the pieces of you you thought that they were unlikable because you had been conditioned to believe that you were unlikable. But ultimately, we watch you find your strength and we find strength in ourselves through your story too.
SPEAKER_00It's it's when I say it's it's the human condition. It's raw. And I didn't want to just like trauma dump on you. I wanted you to relate to me because I know that we all make mistakes. And I didn't want to portray myself as this, oh, look, I went through all this bad stuff, everybody did it for me, and then I made it out. I'm like, no, you're gonna not agree with me. You're not gonna like my decisions. I didn't like them, but that's what took me to the next level is taking accountability. Obviously, at the end we'll get there, but you know, forgiveness for yourself and your mistakes, and taking accountability even when you're wrong.
SPEAKER_01Only when you're wrong, Katya. Don't take accountability when you're not wrong.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, only when I'm wrong. So yeah. Um, I cried a lot. I cried a lot, but I cried a lot for that me in the past. I mourned her, I hugged her, and I'm like, I'm gonna tell that story anyways. Like, come with me. And in my book, I do separate. There's two versions of myself, not in a split personality type of way. But that's that was how I felt. I felt trapped in the past, yet I'm trying to break free from it. And now I'm the narrator that's looking at the two girls. And so I was like, trust me, let's, you know, I'll take you through to the end. And yeah, you did wrong and you did wrong, but we are here now, you know, in the in the future, seven years now in, you're okay. And it's safe for you to talk about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think you mothered yourself through your memoir.
SPEAKER_00Pretty much so.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so walk me through the title because I thought that was really I had never heard of this phrase I drank from the Nile and what it means. Was there just like a light bulb moment as you were writing it? You were like ding-ding, this is it, or did you always know this was the title?
SPEAKER_00It was always the title. Okay. Well, as soon as I started from the beginning writing on my laptop, I labeled my Google Doc I drank from the Nile. Always been so that is a saying in in Egypt that when you drink from the Nile, that you are destined to come back. And which I did because I traveled there and I came back there multiple times. But the cover shows me walking away from a Nile that you would think is behind me because I'm in the desert. And that's saying that, you know, you you can't claim me forever. I it might be a destiny, but I can choose another one.
SPEAKER_01I think it was such a great metaphor for addiction, too, because addiction is something that you keep coming back to, keeps pulling you back, and ultimately it's up to you to find the strength or whatever to walk away. Yeah, it's a beautiful cover, beautiful cover.
SPEAKER_00Thanks. Addiction, right? Let's get into that. We will, we will.
SPEAKER_01But before, so your memoir is self-published, correct? Yes. Okay, so walk me through that journey, the decision making behind that process and what that's been like for you, marketing your book, getting your story out there.
SPEAKER_00So I, like I said, I was working with a very good literary coach and and uh company that helped, you know, get get your manuscript out. She's like, we need to tie everything, we need to tie everything. So working through through that. Um, and then she uh suggested, you know, you should try to get it traditionally published. And I queried um like a hundred agents, I think it was like almost a year, and I got I got no's. But even that I got a reply was really nice. And in and when you're querying agents, it's it's a process. It's it's you know, wait three weeks, you know, you don't even know if they're gonna write by it. But a lot of them wrote back to me. And there's like, you know, it's a powerful story, but that's not what I'm looking for right now. And then I just kind of got tired of waiting around and I was like, you know, I just want if if it changes somebody's lives, I want to get it out there. I just need to close this and focus on getting this story out there. Uh I learned a lot myself, you know. I the formatting, I did it myself. I went to places like Upwork and things to have it copy edited. So I went through a lot of editing processes. And eventually right now, what I'm doing, uh, you know, Instagram, my readers here. I do some Google and Amazon ads, and then I approach the Barnes and Nobles here in Reno, Nevada, where I'm from. And I'm actually have a book signing in March. Oh my gosh, congratulations. Good for you. Yeah, so I just doing it myself. And I feel like that's it's my baby and I'll carry it through. And the story I think will sell itself, and and I'm not in it to make money. Really, it's not what my goal is. I've put so much more money into it than I think I'll ever get back. Yeah. But it's it's something that I'm honoring what my goals were with it and just keep pushing it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's incredible. And you maintain a lot of creative control. And just because you get a traditional publisher, that does not mean that your book will even be marketed well or have a lot of success. So maintaining ownership of it and and going out there and hustling, I think that's amazing. And I saw recently online that you're donating the proceeds of your book. I mean, you really aren't making any money off of it because right now you're donating the proceeds to it's the children of heroes in Ukraine.
SPEAKER_00So because my family is still there, I I take all the profits and you know, donate their it's the way that I give back. And this money is not gonna be life-changing to me right now. Uh, I would rather give it to somebody that it will change their life. That's amazing.
SPEAKER_01Thanks. Yeah. Okay, well, let's get into your memoir. So tell us about your story. To me, it was very much the Phoenix rising from the ashes. Your childhood, you had to grow up really fast. We'll need to read your memoir to get the fuller picture, but just to kind of set up the rest of your journey.
The Meaning Of The Nile
SPEAKER_00So I grew up uh in a post-Soviet uh, well, I was born, it was still the Soviet Union, but it fell apart in '91. And, you know, back then we were we lived in a very um poor neighborhood, um outskirts of Kiev, the capital. And, you know, as a child, uh my playground was, you know, the the woods. I was very out, you know, I loved to be outdoors. We were poor. You know, there were times my grandma had to steal food. You know, I had like one toy to play with. I remember it was this little bear. My mom was young. She was going to medical school. And I always remember just medical books everywhere. I learned a lot about things I probably shouldn't know just by pictures. Uh, she was never really home. My grandmother took care of us. We ate, you know, she fed us. But we all, there were seven people living in a 500 square foot apartment. It was very small, you know, Soviet blocks, still like that today. And when she went in as like kind of a joke with her friend for this dating kind of interview to send like the video VHS tapes abroad, she didn't think she was gonna get picked. It was something they did as a joke. And then we get that phone call that this, you know, man from America wants to come meet you. And she didn't remember who this was. She kind of hung up and I remember the phone phone rang again, and it's like, no, he's coming in a month. He wants to meet you. That opportunity kind of my mom took as like, wow, this is our way out of, you know, she wanted more. Uh, so he came, they married, and then we immigrated, which we tried a couple of ways. We came, we tried to go through Mexico, that didn't work. I remember we were there for like three weeks, just standing in line at the embassy. I was eight. Wow. And then so we were sent back. And so how I left Ukraine was because my father left so early, we weren't we couldn't find him to get permission to let me out of the country. So we they actually stowed me on a train. Uh yeah, from Kiev to Poland. I had a hide at the customs control. Wow. Yes. And then we got to Poland and then we had a flight. Um, my mom had some it's basically it's interesting how it's like I kind of did the same thing with my daughter. I'm like, this generational stuff. I'm like, I can't outrun it, man. It's good. No, but I hope I have a better outcome um for that. So, anyway, so childhood like that. I mean, we came to Alaska, very interesting place for me. It's, you know, I was in a city of three million people to a very small town, middle of nowhere. We had a farm, and my mom was always just having the drinking. And so that kind of put a wedge in their relationship. And to this day, you know, I still she's she's she's not in the US anymore, but she's still very upset by everything, and I'm part of the problem. So we her her betrayal, she kind of has always been rubbing off on me. Like it's if I wasn't there, she didn't have to make a better life for me, she wouldn't have made this choice. I'm always always blamed. I was always blamed for everything that's bad happening, the divorce, the this. So yeah, she's she's an interesting person.
SPEAKER_01So and what do you think that you were internalizing as a young child and then later as a young adult about your own worth and your value and your deserving to be loved? Because that's what we see play out, I think, in your memoir is especially these ways that you were conditioned as a child to believe that you didn't matter and that you were a burden.
SPEAKER_00I always thought that if maybe if I work harder, maybe if I just keep my mouth shut, maybe if I, you know, clean up her room, put her stuff away, maybe she won't drink that night. You know, maybe if I have straight A's, which I did, maybe she'll, you know, feel happy about that. So I was always trying to be seen, like pleaser, like, hey, what in and quiet. Never I was allowed to speak up just because I didn't want to stir it. And so I think I I wanted someone to recognize me for who I am. Because my mom was growing up, she's young, right? So I've I've processed this and she's growing up, but then she forgot that I was also growing up. And so I kind of became that parental role or her sister to her. She'd come for advice. And so I kind of have to be like, okay, how what advice can I give? And so yeah, I kind of that that's what I learned is that I had to earn my love in actions and through not stating what I what my needs are.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And that if you weren't receiving love, that it was your fault and your problem to think. And at a certain point, it seemed like she almost started to view you as a competition. You write about being beat up by her because her boyfriend at the time was paying more attention to you, covering your bruises with makeup. And you had no one in your community, no teachers, no one ever come to you and say, Katya, are you okay? Is something happening at home?
SPEAKER_00I had a friend ask because then I started living. Well, I didn't live with my mom on and off, like from 14, 15, 16. She left when I was 17. We kind of lived on and off. I would live with friends. But I loved my mom. So my this is this is not from a trauma. This is kind of like I realized the Katarina in me. I'm very loyal. I I I I would love you even for your wrongs, but there's people that abuse that. And I'm saying with anyone, like they'll abuse you for your good good qualities, and that also means a parent, because a parent knows you more, right? Yeah. And so I didn't want to rat her out because I loved her. Yeah. It's my mom. I still I still could see her pain in it. Yeah. And I believed that the the world outside of her drinking and her whatever drug use or pill use, there's this good person inside. I always believed because there's no way I believe, like, well, then if you're bad, that means I'm really bad. And I think I didn't want to believe that I'm I I could I I come from such a horrible mom. And I always saw her trying, but she always fell victim. She didn't have that strength to just be like, okay, this happened to me, but I don't need it to be my narrative.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So uh maybe it's my Ukrainian or my upbringing where we are required to honor and love our parents. There's probably a big influence on that. I think I put that in my in the beginning in my book, saying, like, we in my culture, we don't talk bad about our parents because that's a reflection of who you are. But I'm like, I I had to let that belief go because I kind of just tested it. And you know, she's a great woman in a lot of ways. I think she just didn't know how to deal with pain. And that's you know, that's something that you either do, you try, you do, or you know. And she didn't try or do. So but I didn't, I try. I mean, there were times, and I don't there's so much I can't write in one moment more, but I learned to to drive when I was four. Team because my mom would be at some bars and I had to pick her up. So I learned to find her in her friend's house. I learned to drive a car and take mom home because we have my sister coming tomorrow in the custody. So if there were moments that if I wasn't there, my sister would be taken from her. She was just she was just gone. Drugs, alcohol. And so I knew that this was wrong. And so, but at the same time, you know, I I couldn't fully escape them. So the which my book is a lot about is my opioid addiction.
SPEAKER_01So let's get into the opioids. And it was actually your mother who first gave them to you and introduced them to you. You were cleaning homes with her, right? And then you suffered an injury.
Self-Publishing And Donating Proceeds
SPEAKER_00Will you remind me when where we worked was for at that time she was the senator of Alaska, and um she had a huge property. I mean, they had their own plane and their own runway and a part of a lake, and and it's just huge property. And so I was, you know, mowing the the lawn. I was tending the flowers. We had a garden and so not only cleaning inside and making jelly and all her all her meals and everything. It was just it was a lot. And so I just hurt my back. We were, I think we were transplanting trees at that point, and I just couldn't carry that stuff anymore. And then I I said it was like my back really hurts. I can't go to work. And I remember it was this little half Vicodin sliver. So here this will help you, which it did. Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, it did. And I wanted more, and then I wanted more, and then I found that she had a lot of it and I would steal it from her. And then just being, you know, a teenager in Alaska, which is a huge problem, is is drugs, uh opium. Because there's not a lot to do there. Not a lot, so everybody's into that now too. And so it's kind of just a combination of everything, it's just about environment. Yeah. And then I like them too much. I I wasn't that person, you know, I was that person that put the labels on, do not take more than three days, or you like them. And I I had that personality. And I think I uh genetically I'm more predisposed to it because I've read into it a lot. Is if you have parents who have suffered from chronic depression, which my father also, or alcoholism, or any kind of he, you know, he's an ex-alcoholic. Yeah, you're you're more susceptible to depression and addiction personalities. And so it was just the perfect environment for me to to expose that part of me. The perfect storm. Yeah, and she was abusing him at the time. I mean, I just couldn't figure out how she had, not even in a prescription bottle, but a sandwich baggie full of Vicatin. I I'm not sure where she was getting them, but that's something I would then, I mean, at 16, 15, I would go into people's homes and I would try to look for those pills. That's how much I I couldn't, I had to have, you know, at least a half, a little bit a day. So that became like so shame. I was ashamed of that at the same time. I didn't want anybody knowing.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you couldn't get help because you didn't want to expose that secret. And throughout your memoir, you have these moments of clarity. You you realize that the drug usage was a worn-out bandage on a deeper pain that you weren't quite ready to face, potentially. I mean, you talk about multiple times, like, I need to stop, and I'm stopping, and I'm gonna stop. Why do you think that your drug usage continued as long as it did? Over a decade at least, right? How many years would you say?
SPEAKER_00It was it was 10, it was about 10 years, yeah. Okay. From 15 to 25. Okay. Why couldn't I stop? Because I didn't want to meet the person on the other side, because I knew what I was numbing. Yeah. Like I knew, you know, when you know, like, oh, I just don't want to think about it. And you want to some people, you know, drink a glass of wine to deal with it. It's just a vice. And I took the pills not to feel high anymore. I mean, enough of them, yes, but I need to have a little bit just to feel normal because obviously the physical withdrawals are terrible. And then for me, it was a lot of the mental stuff. It kind of, you know, it's me being stuck from you know, zero to 15. It's that stuff I had so many questions about and nobody to ask, which a lot of us don't. Yeah. And from I just kept numbing that part. So I was like, gosh, I know if I stop, I have to meet that person. And I wasn't ready to meet her. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. You do actually do a really great job of describing the physical effects, putting us in your shoes and and letting us experience that like need, that ache for you to get to balance, get to zero. It's like every day you started in the negative and you needed the opioids to get to zero so that you could handle some of the questionable decisions that you were making, which you know you talk about and we're about to get into. But then at a certain point in your memoir, you do decide to quit cold turkey, which is absolutely insane because in theory you could have died from the withdrawals, right? But at a certain point, you just were like, I'm done. It's enough. Talk to me about that moment.
Childhood Poverty And Leaving Ukraine
SPEAKER_00The decision I made very high. Very in a very happy place. At that time, I kind of leaned in stronger to my faith, and I had this bargain with God that if I got the second chance, if I finally, you know, I drank from the Nile, I'm coming back to Egypt with then I didn't know but will be my husband. I was like, okay, let me do it the right way. So because last time I came here, I was a drug addict, and that didn't go well. Let me just start over, let me be clean so that for I remember when I arrived, I didn't have any more. I thought I did. And then I was searching frantically in my bag, and I was like, oh shit, we are we're doing this. But I knew where where all the farm I knew how to get them there, and I would pass them on my way to work or drive by them, and I would just be like drooling for it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But I I just wanted to a clean start. I was like, okay, I'm gonna quit my pills, but in exchange, I want, you know, a happy marriage with partner, and I want a family more than anything. Interesting. I just I was reading about when you do quit any kind of addiction, you're not allowed to make any life altering decisions for like at least a year because your neurochemicals and everything is so imbalanced and you're more of like impulsive, or there or there's the guilt. There's so much other emotions that are rising. And so it's almost like you're not you're I wish I had help because then it'd be like, okay, you need to come back, you need to sit here. We need to talk about your mental health, you know, not try to figure out a marriage in Egypt. What the hell are you doing?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Is there any sort of mental health support set up in Egypt? I imagine the answer is no.
SPEAKER_00Not that I'm aware of for drug use, probably not, because it's not allowed. I mean, you can't even, there's not even real alcohol stores there. Like getting alcohol, you gotta, you know, it's a black market type of thing. I'm not sure that they they just believe it's not a problem there, but it is a big problem there.
SPEAKER_01It was so fascinating learning about life in Egypt. And I can't wait to get to that part. But I wanna I wanna read this. You write, I felt like a fraud meeting myself for the first time. None of the pain I was running from could be healed with truckloads of synthetic opioids. Instead, the pain was amplified as though I had been keeping it down like an inflated ball underwater. Everything down to the gritty details of my sad childhood came bobbing to the surface in that first conscious moment of clarity, awaiting to be processed. But do you feel like you processed it then? Because it still feels like there was a lot of life that was lived before getting to that moment of processing.
SPEAKER_00I think I did in my private time, and I think the biggest process, because the next thing I read about is or continue that is my mom and kind of seeing that, you know, the anger I felt for her, which as I just said, like that was something I always loved her. So I think just letting my anger out and realizing no, you were wrong. I I don't like what you did to me. Where before I'm like, oh, poor mom, no, I'll just help you. I see what you're doing. Just pressing that anger down was one of the things I let out in private because I wasn't living with him. Um we're not allowed to live together until we're married. So I had this life with work with him, and then I would come home and just break down. Actually, I have a lot of my journals about it. I wrote her many letters. I wrote myself letters. And since I studied psychology, I was kind of my first, my first patient.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Oh, you know what? You were psychoanalyzing yourself. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00At that moment, I was like, okay, so okay, but if I hang on to it and I did hang on to it and I didn't process it and I didn't feel it, and I just, you know, pitied the ones that hurt me, that's not healthy either. I thought I was being the strong person that, oh, it's okay. It's okay. And that's that's wrong because I kept putting all that pain that and holding it down. I should have been like, Why are you giving me all these pills? You know, you gave me these pills. I need help. Do you need help? None of that was ever talked about. Yeah. Because we just kept pushing that pain down. So pain to power, right? So what is it? If you let it sit inside of you, you're gonna turn to a vice.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And then it will eventually come up. And so the way I processed it is just feeling anger. And it that helped.
SPEAKER_01You had to feel and acknowledge the anger first, right? Like you can't skip that step. I mean, it makes sense reading your story. You were never taught to be the main character of your life. So how could you? Yeah. That you had to learn a lot, and you did, and you take us through it. I mean, it's honestly remarkable that I'm sitting across from you right now and you are so just you seem so grounded and so sure. And obviously, look, we're all work in progress at all points. Do you feel do you feel like you have sat and been like, wow, I'm kind of amazing, like that I did this? Have you? Uh yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Good. You know how I felt it though? With tears. Yeah. I pat myself on the back and I'm like, you know what? I am I am good. It's it's okay to be good. And and when I yeah, I was I cried for myself. I was like, why didn't I allow myself? Like, who told me not to feel this way? I I should, and I did. It's been, I think the last kind of three years, four years. I started like really living is what I was telling everyone. I was like, I really feel okay. Like I'm I'm actually loving myself. It's interesting, very interesting life zone.
SPEAKER_01It I think it is something that can be really difficult to admit and acknowledge because it is almost seems like we're not supposed to. But I'm glad that you have. Let's talk about chasing love. Before we get to the men, and you've talked about your mom quite a bit, and it she's not here, but do you still have a relationship with her?
SPEAKER_00Um, I did when I moved back here with my daughter for a little while. She was happy that I did that. She needed me because I was back in America for for her own needs as far as like a financial gain. And so I realized that about three years in and I had to cut off that relationship. But yeah, she doesn't call and my daughter, she doesn't really talk about or ask about her. So I had to be like, well, that's not right. Why should I reach out to you when you don't really want to know your granddaughter? And I will help her. I will send her things or through my grandma. I ask about her, make sure she's okay. Um, but I cannot talk to her.
SPEAKER_01You feel like you've finally released whatever it was you were looking for from the relationship with your mom. You've let that go.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because that's at the same time, I'm a mom. So what do I explain to my daughter why your grandma's not around? It's better for her. For my thing, is like it's either in your life in our lives or you're not. And I'm not gonna sugarcoat what you're doing. If you're not asking about her, I just say, hey, I don't know where grandma is. You know, I I I don't want to I don't I don't want her to keep breaking her my heart, keep breaking it, and then my daughter's heart. So I get that.
SPEAKER_01Okay, well, let's talk about these three men that you bring up. You write this. I thought I was wise beyond my years, but every man I met treated me like a child. Life had taught me a lot, yet I constantly failed to apply that wisdom. I know that I was doing wrong by getting into pointless romances, aimlessly roaming the world and putting drugs in my body, but I kept running from myself. What do you feel that these men made you feel about yourself? Because you're right at one point, if I couldn't prove my self-worth to my mother, I would prove it to Lucas. And Lucas is kind of this first figure in your life, this love. You were living with him and Reno. Things are healthy according to you, but you're taking drugs without him knowing. And then they get shaky and you're like, Well, I'll go to Egypt and I will become the woman you deserve. So talk to me a little bit about Lucas. You know, obviously, like I said, our listeners need to just buy your book because you go into it in such great depth, but you know, just give him a taste for now.
SPEAKER_00So Lucas have he was always my um role model in this most stable man that I have seen in my life up to that point. I felt like he, you know, he was an entrepreneur. Uh we met on campus. He was older than me, uh 12 years. Very culture worldly, not biased. He could talk to anyone about anything. Just such a positive person. And he really is, he still is to this day. Great man. But, you know, I felt like I wasn't good enough because apart, yes, I was doing drugs behind his back, and because of my past, and he knew about my mom and my bad relationship. And it's some somewhere in my head, um, I'm thinking, like, oh, he thinks I'm like her.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
Pleasing Mom And Learning Shame
SPEAKER_00So I, you know, I wanted to please him because I wanted to be his equal. I just thought he was like the greatest person I've ever met. And so there's always this part of me that, like, well, I never stopped to think, like, well, if he picked me, so maybe I'm good in some ways. No, there was, there was constantly of I I wanted to be better for him, but I knew I was flawed. And so being flawed, I thought if I told him that I was, I felt he wouldn't love me. There's so many other women out there. And he was, you know, he's he was a very wanted person. So I almost had to kind of not that I who I was fully was a lie to him, but definitely the my drug and what's in my head, I couldn't tell him. I wanted to be like, hey, listen, I've never told anybody this, but like I take I take pills and I don't think it's good. And so a lot of our fights would happen because I was coming down off of pills.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I was just rude, always just taking it too far because uh all I'm thinking about right now is like, I'm going to, you know, my heart's racing, I'm sweating, I'm shaking, I just need my fix, and I have no idea when I'm gonna get it. And you're in the way right now.
SPEAKER_01It almost felt like you were playing a role, which you talk about kind of creating Katya as a role, but but playing at who you thought Lucas would find the perfect person to be. You were afraid to expose all the things that you had internalized as things that were wrong with you when really through your journey you realized that, you know, it wasn't your fault. It was just a really interesting way to read about how if we don't acknowledge our pain, how it will seep out and destroy things in our life that we do so desperately want to be good in our life. And so you have to go through the work and you have to go through the journey. There were times where I was like, Lucas, you need to be communicating with this woman a lot more. And like, you know, he he did seem to bail you out when you needed him to. But then there were times where I was like, as someone who at this point was really like on your side rooting for you, I was like, no, no, I don't think he's as good for you as you think he is for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and then eventually, yeah, I discover that too. And then my my my editor, she's just like, gosh, you have this such like a you know, romance book type of love, like fairy tale love towards him. She's like, Take this out. I was like, that's how I feel. I was like, because I like again, I see the good in people. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And but I'm afraid to show you your whole self.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01No, I'm glad you kept that in. I think that it's important for us when we see stories like that, where it makes us reflect and be like, how have we idealized, romanticized this person, put them on a pedestal when no one deserves to be put on a pedestal above us, really in a partnership. They should be your equal. You should be free to expose all of the quote unquote damaged parts of yourself, and they should be free to do that to them too. And it just wasn't a relationship that was destined to work at that point. Exactly. Talk to me about this moment where you decide of all places that Egypt is the place where you're gonna go to prove your worth to Lucas.
SPEAKER_00We traveled there in during the the revolution. So we we actually stood out in the streets of Tahir Square protesting in 2012, December, early December. It was one of their biggest uh uprisings, and they overthrew Mubarak. Anyways, what a wild time to be there. And so we had we kind of we got we got some this Egyptian hot blood flowing through us, you know, and he was like, God, this is such an amazing place where people are are fighting for their rights and women, you know, restricted, and there's just the youth is rising up. He we we loved Egypt as as tourists, we did because we kind of when we went in, we we blended in with with the local stuff. We were very good at doing that. And so I thought, how do I prove that I'm capable and worthy and worldly? I was like, well, if I just go to Egypt, because that was one of the places we both liked, I yeah, it was such an impulsive choice. Looking back now, not when it was happening for me was so real because both of us are very worldly, um, this wonderlust people, and he still is very connected with all kind of world problems and everything. When I when I made that choice, it doesn't really make sense for anyone that's kind of here, you know, in their city and like this is this is this is your next step. We saw our our life and the way that it can go on a world scale. Because he moved to Ukraine and he moved to Turkey, and so uh so I was like, okay, well, I'm just gonna into him, like if I say this to anybody right now, I was like, hey, I'm gonna move to Egypt and figure things out on my own. They'd be like, okay, you're crazy. So the context is we are very wonderlust kind of globalists.
SPEAKER_01It made sense for you to, but then when you get there, how quickly were you like, oh no. I mean, you talk about the sexual harassment. At one point, you quote the statistic that 98% of females have experienced a form of harassment in public. You write the male population was thinking that it was your fault for attracting attention. That's um that's living dangerously every single moment. And on top of that, you were also trying to get these pills at these pharmacies. I mean, it this was wild. This was wild to read.
SPEAKER_00Wild, wild to rewrite it. So when I realized, like, okay, this could be really bad, was kind of a weekend, you know, and I I I realized I'm not with a man because that last time I traveled, I was with him.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00He's by my side, they just, oh, welcome to Egypt. Nobody says anything. But then I was alone and it got more hostile. And then I and then it just clicked. I was like, no, well, duh, we know that there, you know, women that are harassed here and we've seen it, and we and then I was like, damn, I didn't I didn't think it through, you know. Yeah, realizing that you know it was hard to get the pills, I started panicking, but I was so determined to prove myself. So, like again, no self-worth at the time, right? So this is what carrying pain and not understanding or loving yourself can make you do. And then when you're kind of trying to chase love without healing those parts of yourself, you're just not gonna make the right choices. Yeah. That's what I basically I'm trying to convey, but I'm doing it at a very extreme, which is real, Egypt setting. But it can happen, you know, next town over.
Opioids And The Fear Of Sobriety
SPEAKER_01And so at a certain point, you meet some men in Egypt. And at first they seem like they're the answer to some sort of prayer, and things quickly turn south, specifically with Rami. Yeah. And that was a really scary situation to read about you being in. Um I feel like you were literally fleeing for your life from that relationship.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was um scary. Uh, I mean, I but I thought I was not, I thought he was gonna hurt me beyond what he already has done, you know. Yeah, yeah, with the sexual abuse and things. And I was under a lot of drugs too. I mean, GHB, I was doing, you know, cocaine. Do you know what GHB is? So it's the date rape drug.
SPEAKER_01Oh, okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_00So GHB was that what's what he was giving me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like I explain it, it feels like you're just very drunk and just loopy, and then all of a sudden you'll go into REM sleep, but you have no memory of sleep or like an hour or two. What happened to you leading up to that point? You could just you could be fully aware, awake, but a lot of the times this is what they give when they it's a date rape drug.
SPEAKER_01You're taking us through you hitting rock bottom, but also getting involved with a lot of toxic people, like the toxic people dragging you down, but also not feeling like you were able to break free. But then you meet Amir. At the beginning, I was like, this is not gonna be your husband, because I knew you know your story where it's like you had to flee your abusive husband, and I was like, Oh, he's this guy seems great at the beginning.
SPEAKER_00So, because of Rami's abuse towards me, I had to hide in this, you know, and and really uh try, I need to get out of this country because it was bad. And so during the time when I was kind of looking or staying low, waiting for Lucas to respond here back from the states, saying, I just need I told him like I need a ticket. Can we rekindle? Please, I was wrong. There's just a done I said everything but my addiction. I told him everything but that so when I met Amir, he helped. Me with some paperwork and my visa was expired. So I learned to trust him. And I haven't learned to trust any Egyptian person really ever since, you know, or the whole time. So he was like a breath of fresh air, but right at the end of my journey there, he was my hero more than once throughout the book. And that's where I fell I fell in love with him. I was like, okay, well, this man has been with me through everything. He knows a lot about me, and he's he's still choosing me, unlike Lucas, who has, you know, only wants me to be strong and worldly and appreciative, and but fails to see the broken parts. So eventually um I chose Amir over Lucas and you know, try to build a life with him.
SPEAKER_01You smartly say, Let's get married in Ukraine, because you're right, I didn't trust the Egyptian system where faith and law were so tangled together. And the ultimate goal for both of you, so you thought, was to go to America and raise your family there, become Americans. Do you think Amir was ever actually interested in that? I I think he was.
SPEAKER_00I think he was. But when I fell pregnant, he probably realized, like, wow, I have to, she needs to be brought up as a Muslim. And how do I it needs she needs to be brought up with my values? Like, yeah, I think after learning, because we I got pregnant a month into our marriage, and so it hit him really hard. But I think then I think maybe there was like cultural influence. Like, how could you just take your Muslim-born child out of Egypt? You're here with us, this is your family. And I didn't have a family that would be like, no, you come live with us. Or so I think that started putting a wedge in him. He started the true color started showing, as in like, you can take somebody out of their country, but you can't take the country out of them. Pretty much that's what was happening. He's kind of the circles around him was probably saying, like, oh, she will settle down, she's gonna have the baby, she'll accept, she'll be focused only on the child, you know, everything's gonna be found. And I wasn't focused on that. I was like, we need to get out of this country a hundred like now.
SPEAKER_01You were very strong-willed, which was not the culture. And what was interesting to me was that seemed to be what excited him about you. Yeah. Until all of a sudden it was it was a problem.
SPEAKER_00Until it came, you know, we can we can talk about all this stuff and like, but when it comes time to actually play those cards, yeah, uh, he was like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, we're moving. I'm like, Yeah, we're moving right now. We're moving, like, let's start. I I'll do whatever it takes. It's like, oh, okay. Uh no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Wait a minute. I'm telling you, I mean, reading it is crazy, living it was crazier. And then writing it was like, what the heck? What I can only imagine. I'm like, what were you thinking? And I was like, no, I gotta put that in there because that's what I was thinking.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, totally. You would have done yourself a disservice. And I mean, we it it was so great for us to experience the whole magnitude of your own confusion play out as you were attempting to navigate all of it, you know, because it just makes you so human and it makes you so relatable. You never pretended to have it all figured out. That was what you were searching for. So your daughter is born in Ukraine.
SPEAKER_00She's born. We were already having problems. I know he's cheating on me. He already wants to leave Amir, the marriage.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I know I'm I'm in Ukraine with her. And because we're still married and under Ukrainian laws, we had to abide by Ukrainian laws. I would have to have his permission to even leave the country with her. You talked about that with your father, they couldn't find him, and so you had to stow away. Yeah, you have to have the father's permission. So I was like, I had to keep my head on my shoulder because I needed him to come back and sign some documents. So she had to pass my citizenship to her. I needed him to come back out to Ukraine to even do all of that. So because we were married and his name was on the birth certificate for her. I mean, I could have left, but I can't leave with her. Right. So I at that point I I knew I needed to get out. I had to play somewhat cordial, swallowing all that crap he's putting on to me just for him to come back and sign papers. So we can we can leave and get his permission. But the permission he gave me, and I was I remember him signing it, he only put the country to go to was Egypt. And I was like, I looked over at her and she's like, Well, isn't that where you're going? I'm like, Well, yeah, I couldn't include that in there, but I was worried. I was like, so I can only go to Egypt with her right now. And so I was like, Okay, well, and I'm gonna go back to Egypt because two things at that point I was so tired of fighting. You had also like just given birth. You were extremely postpartum at this point, weren't you? Oh my gosh, I couldn't walk next to a set of stairs without thinking I'm gonna fall. You know, constantly thinking you're a mother. Yeah, yeah, you know those intrusive thoughts. Yeah, yeah. Thousand times. Yeah, we the depression, the tears, the can't sleep, my nipples are leaking, everything's painful. And then I'm I'm trying to navigate maybe divorce documents and where where are we gonna live? And I was just like, okay, let me at least fight for a family. I'm gonna try that because that has been what I've wanted, right? So I'm gonna be true to myself. Maybe he'll leave his mistress. Maybe this is the way he's processing, like some fathers do.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I'm giving him the maybes that I've given to my mom. Yeah, everybody in my life. And then when it's like, that's when I just broke, I was like, I can't keep playing everybody's game. I gotta stand up for what I believe.
SPEAKER_01And do you feel that it was your daughter, Sophie, who really finally gave you, I guess, the the strength to stand up not only for yourself, but for her as well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's I have this one shot to make it right as a mother. And so I was like, gosh, I can't then I'll just bring all of my problems on to her. I had to I had to create my own rock bottom, but on my own terms. And that meant taking her from her father. I don't know what's gonna happen. I need to clean everything. I don't care about my material stuff. I don't care. I need to restart because this is my choice to restart, my rock bottom. So she really helps me understand that I I don't have to be playing their games. I don't have to be, I mean, the mistakes that we're both making. I can just start over and I don't need to ask for permission from anyone. I already see where it's going. I would be sitting at home with her in in Egypt. He's moved on to another family. I will not be happy and therefore she won't be happy. Happy kids have happy mothers. I wasn't happy there. He knew that. So how can I be a good mom when I'm suicidal, depressed, crying? Yeah, it just doesn't make any sense to me.
SPEAKER_01And you specifically had to leave Egypt because of the Sharia law, where if you guys got divorced, you wouldn't be able to remarry, or else you would have to, you would lose custody of your daughter. Lose custody of her. And you take us through those heart-pounding moments in the airport of you escaping with your daughter, and you come to America. This is where you've been now for the past eight years, yeah. And you write, I finally understood my mission to live for myself and for Sophie. Sophie was my clean slate, my second chance. How have you uh capitalized on this clean slate and the second chance, Katya?
SPEAKER_00Well, uh, wrote it all down. I have started kind of back on my career path of, you know, in medicine. So I'm doing nursing school. You know, I had to get on my feet, but getting on your feet with this baggage is also very careful. You know, I obviously I'm sober still to this day. I got remarried two years ago.
SPEAKER_01Awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so we build, we're building, you know, our family or our life with her. Uh, he's a great father to her. Who am I now? You know, I'm still ambitious. I'm realizing that, you know, it's okay to start over in your 30s. That blank slate. She she came as this pure being into this crazy world we live in today for you know what whatever is going on. But it's my responsibility. Um she's my family now. And that's because if I raise her in a healthy way, then she'll raise her children in a healthy way. This is a generational trauma and pain that I'm talking about. Yeah. Through her, you know, I'm I'm healing my own childhood. I do things with her that I my mother never did with me. We're having, you know, great time together.
SPEAKER_01Are you still in therapy or is it something that you kind of have popped in and out of?
Egypt Harassment And Dangerous Relationships
SPEAKER_00Stopped. I went through a lot of therapists here in town. They're tired of me. You know which one really helped? Um, and this is before this is in my early time of writing, it there's a therapy called narrative therapy. It's basically you tell them your life story and they help you rewrite it. It's kind of restructuring what you think about what your life was. And so where I used to take it as I'm full of pain and trauma, I now see it as resilience and strength and beating beating the odds. You know, it's just how you see it. Yeah, how you frame it. So when I used to see it as like, oh, my mom, and we're all this and that, and this and that, that doesn't help the cause. And I didn't choose that, but it is my choice to break that. That's my responsibility to not let it hurt me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. I'm so appreciative that you bring it up because I think it is a really powerful therapeutic tool that not a lot of people know about.
SPEAKER_00Hurt people, hurt people. It's like somebody has to break that chain. And I think at the end of in the epilogue is what I mentioned that you know, pain is this virus that we can't escape from. It affects all of us. But it's what you do with it. You can either let it destroy you, we can dwell in it, we can cry about it, we can channel it in any way we want. But I think the most important thing is just to not pass it on to someone.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think you do have to acknowledge it and move through it in the way that works for you, too. Because I think a lot of people think that putting pain on the back burner means it goes away. No, it doesn't. And that's also what your memoir shows, too, is like you tried that. You tried to numb it, you tried to ignore it, but you did so much work to get yourself to this place. You did it. You made all those choices for yourself.
SPEAKER_00I had to stop blaming, even though there are people to blame. But if I just kept blaming someone, that just that doesn't take accountability for what pain is. It's my responsibility to do that. If you're the mother or the father or the person that that does deal with that pain, whether it's yours to begin with or not, and we know it's not yours. We know the trauma. You didn't choose that. We nobody chooses their pain. You can be that that better person in this world. You can you can be the better mom, dad, grandma, auntie, brother, sister. You know, I want my book to encourage women to, or even I actually have a few men that read it. You know, I think we we sometimes forget that we have the power to rewrite our story. And what helps me through my insane life, and there's so many insane lives, is just, you know, whether it's faith-driven or just the fact that you're alive on this planet, you know, you gotta love life and the experience more than the pain and the trauma and the and the bad experiences that happened to you. I think that's how it helped me through everything that I was always going for. You kind of zoom out and and look at life as this one opportunity, you know. And if we if we pick this part and we let it stick with us, we we we are missing out on myriad opportunities around us.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00So that helped me, even when I was in the lowest with Rami, you know, in that house, I was like, this is not how it can be. That determination just to love my life and the possibility that I am alive now and I can do whatever and be whatever was was a lot of the time my my catalyst. So it's it's my way of kind of putting faith without putting a a name on it, is just love your love, love the opportunity that the life can bring you.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Good and bad can happen. So why not believe that the good can happen?
SPEAKER_01That is so well said. And I think that your memory, your memoir demonstrates that. And I think our conversation today demonstrates that as well. Thank you, Alex. Before I let you go, I have two. So I have a question that I ask all my authors. How do you stay hopeful? Which I feel like you just touched on, but you know, I like to just ask the question.
SPEAKER_00Uh, I know someone, whether it's my friend, my daughter, you know, someone needs me in this world. And um, and I need someone else. So just be the good a good person is what I try every day.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Seems like you actively choose hope a lot in your life right now. Yeah. Okay, I'm reaching into my jar. Now these questions range from, you know, kind of silly and sassy to, you know, thoughtful and reflective. So here we go. Let's see what fate has for Katya today. Ooh, what book has changed your life? Hmm. Honestly, eat pray love.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Hey, I love that book. I read it while I was traveling too, and she was kind of like my best friend through when I was solo traveling through the unknowns and kind of getting in touch with my spirituality and the possibility of these outcomes that you won't expect happening. That there's so many different things that can come out of it, and um, you know, be true to yourself.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Katia, I absolutely enjoyed chatting with you so much and our conversation. And I think that your book will change people. It's a powerful, compelling, moving story. So thank you.
SPEAKER_00Thank you. Oh, it's great to hear. Um, even all of my hurts has a purpose. Pain has purpose. So thank you for your time too. Love it.
SPEAKER_01Awesome. Okay, love. Well, have a good day. Take care. You too. Bye. Bye. And thank you so much for listening. If you'd like to further support the show, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or Patreon for bonus content. Or you can find some of our cute merch at TPublic. Be sure to tune in next week when author Linda Rhodes joins the show to discuss her memoir, Breaking the Barnyard Barrier: A Woman Veterinarian Paves the Way. This is the story of how Linda, through grit and tears, made her way in a man's world and blazed a path that prevails against career stereotypes. Until then, take care.
