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Babes in Bookland
A podcast celebrating women's memoirs, one story at a time!
Babes in Bookland
Coming Back to Life // Bethany Joy Lenz's "Dinner for Vampires"
If belonging feels like love, purpose, and family… how do you tell when it’s actually something darker?
In this episode, we sit with the hard truths behind Bethany Joy Lenz’s memoir Dinner for Vampires. Through the quiet metaphor of a “meal” that slowly turns devouring, Joy reveals how a search for purpose and belonging can be manipulated by those who feed on vulnerability. We explore the slow erosion of identity, the psychological grip of coercive groups, and the courage it takes to push back from a table that was never nourishing you. This conversation looks beyond the headlines and asks what it really means to reclaim your voice after years spent in the shadows.
We talk cult dynamics 101: us-versus-them thinking, leaders without oversight, and the chilling rule Joy names so clearly: “in a cult, safety means agreement." Still, this isn’t a story about losing faith; it’s about reclaiming it.
If you want a gripping, clear-eyed look at coercive control, Hollywood pressure, and the courage it takes to walk away, press play. Then join the conversation: subscribe, share this with a friend who loves memoirs and media. If you like what you hear, please leave a review!
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Variety- One Tree Hill Cast, Crew Detail Assault, Harassment Claims Against Mark Schwahn
Transcripts are available through Apple’s podcast app—they may not be perfect, but relying on them allows me to dedicate more time to the show! If you’re interested in being a transcript angel, let me know.
This episode is produced, recorded, and its content edited by me.
Technical editing done by Brianna Picone.
Theme song by Devin Kennedy
Special thanks to my dear friend, Priscilla!
Xx, Alex
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Hi, welcome to another episode of Babes in Bookland. Today, my friend Priscilla is back and we're chatting about Bethany Joyland's Dinner for Vampires, life on a cult TV show, while also in an actual cult. If you'd like to further support the show, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts to listen to the extended version of this episode, or find us on Patreon. Let's get to it. Hi, Priscilla. Hey Alex. So we're just gonna call Bethany Joyland's Joy because that's what she goes by. What did you think of Joy's book?
SPEAKER_01:I thought it was actually very, very exciting to read. It was a page turner for me. So although it was a memoir, it felt kind of thriller-ish. Like what's gonna happen next, what's going on, and knowing that it's all true was a little kind of sad, but just also entertaining to read, if that's terrible to say.
SPEAKER_02:You're a true crime girly. It's fine. You can admit it. I know, and it's always interesting to read memoirs like this where you're with the character as she's going through these things, making these decisions. You know how it turns out, but like you said, her writing is so good that you still feel stress and anxiety. And there is that small part of you that forgets, oh, Joy herself now is in a really good place, and that's why she was able to write this book. But Lord, did she go through, I mean, a hellish experience. A really, really scary, very easy to get sucked into experience. And I think that was the biggest takeaway that I had from her book. There wasn't as much Wentry Hill stuff as maybe I initially thought or wanted. And we'll really get into the reason why, but truly her book was such an eye-opening experience and a warning for all of us who think that we're too smart to get sucked into a cult because it happens slowly and then all at once. You know what I'm saying?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it almost feels like everyone's vulnerable and or goes through vulnerable periods of time. So it's really just a moment of vulnerability. And they came in and got her. I didn't know though anything about this. Did you? No. Absolutely your idea. The way she talked about it, where it's like, oh, everyone's talking about it, she's kind of had a bad reputation. I think that's why I did enjoy it because this was all such a shocking story for me. I had absolutely no idea that she was in a cult ever.
SPEAKER_02:I know she talks about at one point that the rumors start blowing up on like the One Tree Hill message boards online. I was like, that is such old tech, but honestly, like we, you know, we love we're huge fans of this show, especially at the start of it, but we weren't online discussing things. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So and we weren't in Hollywood at this point either. I forget what night it was on. It was just that thing to watch on that day.
SPEAKER_02:What was the other show? The OC? The OC, yeah. Oh, yeah. Okay. Both of those, One Tree Hill, the OC were our jams. Okay, let's get into it. So this book was published in 2024, and this is her dedication. This book is for you. Okay, so we'll start off with our quick topics or our quick bites if we're gonna go with the vampire theme. All right, girl, when she quoted Buffy right off the bat, I got so excited because Buffy is one of my favorite shows. You are a huge fan. I'm a huge fan. And so this was her quote: Angelus, no weapons, no friends, no hope. Take all that away and what's left. Buffy. Me. Oh, it gives me chills thinking about that right now. I need to rewatch that show. That was just me having some Buffy love. Next quick topic. Shout out to substantial underscore sky 4056 on Reddit, where they listed all of the vampires that Joy used in replace of the actual names. There's a character, Harker, and this is Jonathan Harker from Dracula. The character Lucy is also from Dracula. Mina, Mina Harker is also from Dracula. Les Lestat from Interview with the Vampire. And you read that book, right? Recently. Very recently.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, did you like it? I loved it.
SPEAKER_02:It's a fantastic story. Pam is from True Blood. Ed, they said Edward Cullen from Twilight. Kurt, Kurt Barlow from Salem's Lot. Abe, Abe Lincoln Vampire Hunter, which maybe's a stretch, but I don't care. I'm here for it. Martine, Martine Bancroft. And who knows if she made these same connections. I mean, they're so she had to have thought of this, right? Like it's genius. That literally, I did not catch that at all. I mean it. I mean it. Yeah. Yeah. No, totally. I mean, Ed, Edward Cullen, like, yeah. That would have been maybe the one that I put together, but I love it. Okay, next quick topic. So I love Joy and her Hallmark movies. She's so good. She elevates every Hallmark movie that she's in.
SPEAKER_01:I haven't seen her in a Hallmark movie.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, well, let me give you a list, but also please, everyone, check out A Built More Christmas because my friend Annabelle is in that as well. And truly, I'm not just saying this because my friend is in the movie. That movie is better than Hallmark.
SPEAKER_00:Like is a good one. That's a really good one.
SPEAKER_02:And she really is a fantastic actress. She writes a lot about having a lot of close calls, and she could have very easily, instead of being on a cult TV show, been, I think, you know, a movie star actress, had certain things just gone a different way. But she really, really, really is good and she elevates all the material that she's in. Next quick topic: the Disney princess personality quiz. So Joy's always felt super connected to the princess Belle, and she'd always wanted to play that role. She actually got a chance to play Belle on Broadway, but her cult family encouraged her to pass on the opportunity because at that point I think they were feeling like she was loosening their grip on her. And so they wanted her to come home to them between seasons of filming One Tree Hill. And so she does. She passes on the opportunity to play Belle on Broadway. And clearly that's a huge regret for her. And that part was super heartbreaking because you know how deep she was in it to make that choice. But she writes about taking the Disney princess personality quiz and she gets Aurora, which is sleeping beauty, which I thought that's kind of ironic. You know, because in theory, right, she was sleeping through all these red flags. Who did you get? I got I had to just look it up right now.
SPEAKER_01:I got Vanilla P. von Schuitz from Wreck It Ralph. What? I know. I'm not gonna lie, I was a little sad because I'm like, I didn't get a classic Disney princess. What do they say about her? She's literally a child. She is a child, right? She's the one from Wreck It Ralph. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It says, You are strong, fun, and an absolute legend on the racetrack. I mean, I guess Mario Kart, I am a legend. You know what, girl? You are strong and fun. That's so true. You're always up for an adventure and you approach every challenge with positivity and curiosity. You're our hero. I was like, okay. Oh, oh my God, I love that.
SPEAKER_02:It's kind of cute.
SPEAKER_00:It's really cute. It's really cute. I got Snow White.
SPEAKER_02:Interesting.
SPEAKER_00:And my Snow White did not have any of the cool explanation when I took it. It was just kind of like, you like to do chores with seven little men.
SPEAKER_01:And I was like, what? Oh, did was that probably like when do you like to sing? And it's like during chores or something.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. That's so fun. That's they're like, oh, you're Snow White. Oh, okay. That's really funny. We will link this Disney princess personality quiz in the show notes because it's hilarious.
SPEAKER_02:All right. Our last quick topic is Wonder Hill. So Joy played Hailey James, later Hailey James Scott. Spoiler alerts for any of you that haven't watched the show. You're like 10 years too late. Which character did you relate to the most on Wonder LP?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, I loved Peyton. I mean, I loved her big hair. I also You loved her, but were you a Peyton? You know, I wasn't, but then I feel like if I had to pick one, it would be her because I feel like I saw a little bit of me in each of them. Yeah. I was very, very social, like Brooke. Like Brooke. I was also very nerdy, like Haley, and was just focused on just chill. And then Peyton was kind of in the middle, like artsy. I wasn't really artsy, but she was just a person in the middle that was cool, but also always wanted to do the right thing.
SPEAKER_02:There was a cool factor about Peyton too. She didn't care what other people thought. Yeah. And she was a little angsty. And I feel like you you had some like undercover angst in high school a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:I definitely had some angst, lots of angst. But I wasn't, she was just so creative. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:You weren't like really like writing poetry and listening to old records and stuff like that. Yeah. What about you? I think I was very much a Haley for sure.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, we all wanted to be Brooke, right? But like none of us were.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, let's dive deeper into Joy's memoir. So we started the prologue. Joy starts her memoir describing the moment that she realizes she needs to get her and her daughter Rosie out of this family that she's in. And okay, like I said earlier, she renames all of the actual real life people, we think characters, you know, vampire characters from vampire books. We will be using the names that she uses or the descriptors that she uses and not the real life people, but you can find these people for yourself. It's really not that hard to Google it. Okay, so her husband has a really bad temper, and she writes, My husband's father had encouraged his three sons from a young age to take out their aggression against women on the drywall and the furniture. And he set the example himself, right in front of the woman if needed, Les would coach. So she can see how passionate you are about her and see how controlled you are not to harm her in spite of the fact that she makes you so angry. And boy, Joy continues, did I make my husband angry? Everything I did, said, thought, my very existence, it seemed. There's so much dumb back there. Like, what the absolute fuck?
SPEAKER_01:You know, reading that though does give me some type of encouragement, feeling like women have come a long way. This is what, 10 years ago? And think about it now. That is easily a red flag for a lot of women who are progressive and thinking the way that we do now. It's very, very obvious. But I do feel like 10 years ago, I mean, this is a little more common. Like this idea is a little more common than now, where women can speak up a lot more.
SPEAKER_02:I just can't believe that a father in the late 90s, early aughts was saying these things to his son. Like that is really scary to me. Like Joy is older than us, but not so much older to where, like, this this feels like something that maybe a guy in the 50s would say. But for him to be so blatant, show her how you could be hitting her, but instead you're hitting furniture and the drywall.
SPEAKER_01:Show her how controlled you are when she makes you angry. Like what? You know, I mean that's kind of how cults are though. They don't want to. It's all about power. It's all about control, yeah, power. And also, too, it is the traditional, like they bank on the old biblical ways to have that type of male power.
SPEAKER_02:I really hope that her ex-husband, I'm sure he hasn't, but think he needs help. That's just a really scary situation to know that. Like, that's your husband's philosophy. You have to share your daughter with him. Yeah. Ugh man. Yeah, so this is how she starts her book. And we're all just like, oh, okay. She writes that she, up until this point in their marriage, she had worked with a therapist to create boundaries. And she tells her husband at the time, quote, if you throw something across the room again, I'm going to immediately remove myself and Rosie from that situation, and we can try talking the next day. His exact words were, I don't agree to that. She writes that she looks down at her daughter, plastered to her chest, and she can see that the light has gone out of her. And her daughter is like, I forget, she's like six to nine months at this point. She writes, I think in that moment, seeing her light go out, knowing why, and knowing I was the only one who could do anything about it, that was the moment I actually became a mother. Joy knows it's time for her to go. Her husband threatens her, claiming that he will fight for full custody and he will win. She writes, he was so confident the girl he knew wouldn't leave. The girl he knew would stay because, in spite of endless struggle and depression, she hadn't left. But she's done being the godly submissive wife that she was conditioned to be. So when he hops in the shower, because he's so confident that she won't leave, she does. She writes, I was reminded of that other girl I used to be before. I was reminded that I still was her. And finally I reached a place where I could say it. I was in a cult and I had to get out. All right, and we will now go through how she got to that point. But that was such a strong prologue. Yeah. Really, her writing, she talks about being a screenwriter and later, you know, writing these plays and writing movies throughout her time on Wundry Hill, but you're never quite sure if someone's gonna be a good writer and like she really is a good writer.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it was very, very well. Well, I feel like too, the pacing of everything. And again, it wasn't it, even though we know what happens, obviously she gets out and she's fine now if she can write a book about it. You're still on edge with her through the experience. Totally.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so life before the cult. Religion had always been a part of her life. She writes, My folks had come out of the Jesus Revolution hippie era and were now in the thick of this new movement, having met at and graduated from one of the country's big charismatic Bible colleges. She continues later, My social life basically consisted of the singing melody doll and our new cocker spaniel puppy. So I was extremely relieved to discover that Jesus would be my permanent friend.
SPEAKER_01:That's so sweet. It's just so sad though. The doll is the sad part.
SPEAKER_02:I know you can do the melody doll. Her father tells her this quote, Do you know that God is so perfect that anything not perfect gets destroyed just by being near him, like a light switch? That's what God does for us. So as long as we keep him flipped on, he eats up all the badness. All right, listen, I really do appreciate this quote, and later it comes into play in a really big way to like save her and help her. But when I first read it, I felt like it was really confusing. And I think that it adds to the confusion she feels because she ties, she's conditioned early on to believe that religion or like religious people equal goodness just by the very fact that like they're religious and have like accepted Jesus into her life. And I think that's why she isn't that critical about this group at the start.
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah. I mean, I you kind of have to tell a story that she was raised in a very like the background of the parents in a very, what did she call it? The biblical hippie era. Yeah, yeah. Because she's much more susceptible to believing it. You know, she's believed many parts of what she's being told later in life already. So it sets the foundation of why she is manipulated into a cult. Like it's not as simple as, oh, she's just weak and vulnerable. It's like, no, I mean, her entire life was built around this belief. So they're not that far off, right, with their messaging.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and it also goes to show how easily Christianity is weaponized. Because I think especially young women and especially young people are in a lot of churches taught not to critically think about what they're being told, but just to accept it and believe it. Right. And especially when she writes about how you know Jesus was her only friend, like it is this beautiful thing for her that you don't want to think too hard about it sometimes about what you're being told.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. You're so young too, you don't even know how to think about it. Totally. And honestly, what her dad is teaching, I find to be very innocent in a sense. You know, like God is light, God is positivity, and even bad things, if they just accept God, He will bring he or she will bring light into their life. That's kind of what I was getting from it. But again, yeah, it's not so black and white like that. It's way too nuanced to say that as a blanket statement. What were you taught about God growing up? I was raised Catholic and I was taught that there are Ten Commandments, and God sent Jesus down and sacrificed his only son to forgive us for our sins or to wash our sins away. Because we are sinners. Because we are sinners. We're human beings, we're gonna make mistakes, we're gonna do wrong in life, but in order to stay by God's side or his good graces, I was raised much more of there are Ten Commandments, follow the Ten Commandments, and you will, you know, you would get to go to God's kingdom when you die. But my parents weren't, they were devout Catholics in a sense, but it was more so of obligation. Obey, obey, obey. And then you're human, you know you're not going to, so confess your sins. That was the cycle. It wasn't until I got older that my faith was developed in a much different way. But that's what I was taught. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:What were you told? No, definitely the same thing. I mean, back to Joyce's childhood. She writes that she feels it was inevitable that she became a performer. It's in her blood. And I thought it was really cool that one of her great-grandmothers ran off and joined the circus and did vaudeville. That was so neat. So, so cool. That was so cool. And she finds a community at the Arlington Theater. She writes, The Arlington community theater gave me my first taste of really belonging somewhere. I realized I could disappear from my problems at home and school and be anyone I wanted to be. On top of that, I was welcomed. My eccentricities like spontaneous singing, mimicking Lucille Ball, and daydreaming were things that got me in trouble at school, but they were an asset to me in acting. I really, really resonated with that. As a theater kid myself, I don't think I'm as theater kiddy as some of the people we went to school with and grew up. I don't, you know, spontaneously bust into song, but I can be a little dramatic. It's fine. And that was one of the big things that drew me into theater was the escape into the character that I could step out of Alex and her problems and her thoughts and her worries and, you know, into a whole different world that was magical or enchanting or just different. Yeah. You know, nowadays it's not really about the escape anymore, and it's more about the storytelling process. I just love telling stories. Was there something like, cause she writes about like how theater was where she finally felt like she could be her authentic self? Was there something in high school?
SPEAKER_01:You know what I'm saying? No, you know, it's interesting. I had to think about this for a while. Something that seems like such a simple question, but I didn't really have that extracurricular hobby or anything like that that made me feel seen. I think in my household, I was never going to be seen by my parents. And so since I was little, it was always like I had this foundation of knowing that I wasn't going to be seen. So I had to see myself. And I think at a young age, like I really, really had to work on that. Obviously, I had my sister who I felt completely understood and seen by. So by the time I'm older, I wasn't seeking to be seen or heard because sadly, it's almost like I'm already used to not being seen or heard, and I can just fulfill that for myself. It was more of like, I don't ever want other people to feel this way. I want to make sure I see and hear anybody and everybody that I can or just be kind to everyone. And I think that I saw that question, I was like, oh wow, I'd never really thought about that, but it's kind of been my entire life. Yeah. It was never like I didn't have an outlet to be seen or heard. It was always more of like, I want to create an outlet for others to be seen and heard. Truly. This is making so much sense to me.
SPEAKER_02:I know, right? I didn't really think about it. And I'm like, here we are, babe's the bookland. We asked the questions that maybe you haven't thought ever to answer. You really do help people be seen and feel seen and be heard. And I feel really lucky to be your bestie in that way.
SPEAKER_01:It kind of is beautiful. It really clicked to me too. And I'm like, huh. I mean, literally my profession. It's never my whole life is just now. I just, I'm not into telling, I love telling stories, but it's not just making stories. I want to tell your story. I want to tell people's stories or give them a platform so that they can be vocal with whatever story they want to tell. And I was like, geez, this is because I we won't go too long, but literally I was thinking about that question for a while. I'm like, have I? I'm like, choir didn't make me. It was like, I kind of, I guess I felt seen most of the time, but not really. Like my parents did not see me. It was you're a kid and your voice doesn't count. We were literally told that, you know? Yeah. I think it's interesting to see how personalities, it's like nature versus nurture. My sister, I think, ended up being very submissive. But me having such an older sister and having someone who experienced it as well was like, okay, I'm not alone in this. And it's like, screw them. She definitely supplemented the maternal love and figure that you needed.
SPEAKER_00:I know that's why for some for all of us at times.
SPEAKER_01:Funny because we went through a period of time where we were so codependent, and then my sister is much old, like five years older. And so she went through a phase where it's like, no, she's not codependent. It's like, it's just me that's codependent. She's good. It's just me.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so Joy books her first on-camera role. On this Christian.
SPEAKER_01:Did you watch part of that? I could only watch part of it.
SPEAKER_02:I could not deal with it.
SPEAKER_01:She's adorable, by the way, though. So adorable, but like, oh my gosh.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so it's called Salty Salvation Celebration, but Salty is spelled like the word psalm, so it's P-S-A-L-T-Y. And we will link this on the show notes. It is, it's honestly kind of horrifying. Like he is very scary. He's like a book. Is he the Bible? I don't know. Honestly, I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_01:It's the Bible. He's the Bible. I watched it without sound on. Did you not hear the opening music? It's like eerie. I'm like, this isn't even lovely. Like, you think kids, high-pitch, fun music. It was eerie. Going into a jungle.
SPEAKER_02:Like, what is happening? I mean, maybe this was kind of one of those things. It does say salvation celebration. So it's gonna probably go down a dark path before you're saved. But hey, bonus points to anybody who makes it all the way through salty salvation celebration. Let us know your thoughts on the Instagram. But yeah, that was hilarious. Okay, this was a really fun nugget. So we did Jessica Simpson's open book. I did that with my friend Lizzie and Britney's memoir. Joy was also in the final round of the Mickey Mouse Club auditions that year. No clue. No clue. Yeah. So she's been around in Hollywood. Like she really goes through in a lot more detail all of these close calls and the co-stars that she would have and the pilots that she was in that didn't get picked up for whatever reason. So when one trio finally happened for her, you were like, okay, girl deserved this for sure. And she was younger than. Well, I guess Nathan, the who had played Nathan, was the youngest. He was like actually 17. Oh, really? Because he did not look that young. I mean that's crazy. I think he was the youngest. I think his, I think I read somewhere that his parent had to be on set the first year because he wasn't 18. Interesting. Was Hillary the oldest? That's a really good question. So she was the MTV VJ. She was an MTV VJ, a video jockey. Oh. She was an MTV personality. And then she got that show. Wow. And Sophia was at USC, so she was at least 19, 20. We really don't get a lot of One Tree Hill stuff here. The most we get is actually Paul Johansson, who played Dan, who was like the bad guy for a really long time.
SPEAKER_01:Look up who this Paul Johansson. He was Nathan's dad. Oh. Yeah. He kills Keith. Yes, he kills his brother in the high school shootout episode. Forgot about him. He is the bad guy.
SPEAKER_02:He's the baddie. And you know, I guess we'll get into it. We'll get into Wentry Hill a little bit. Wait, they're cl they're close. So he was the one that she talked about grabbing dinner. She was the one that was her bestie on set, right? I mean he yeah. I wouldn't even say she had a bestie on set, but it seemed like he was the guy that she spent.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my gosh. I just had this, I just pictured someone else. I didn't even Google it, but now that makes me even more sad because he's so much older. He's so much older.
SPEAKER_02:It's like this, she's fathering for a father figure because she had cut her own out of her life at that point. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01:She wrote she wrote the script with this guy, right? Like they went in together and did.
SPEAKER_02:No, she wrote the she wrote the notebook script with someone else with an outside, not a wonder hiller.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, okay.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'm getting my characters can be okay. Go on. That's okay. That's okay. We're putting the cart before the horse a little bit, but that's all right. It's all people know Wonder Hill, not a big deal. So she makes it to the final round of the Mickey Mouse Club auditions, which is so fun. And it's very clear to her that this is what she's meant to do with her life. Though she's worn it's a very hard life by her grandma Doris, who had been on Broadway. And she tells her, her grandmother tells her, It's hard to be rejected and always be competing, but there's nothing more glorious than being able to tell stories. I can't imagine having done anything else. It brought me so much happiness.
SPEAKER_01:And to that I say amen. As I'm reading it, it's just so interesting that she's talking about this cult. And it's like Hollywood is his own little cult that she's a part of too, you know? I had the same reaction.
SPEAKER_02:I had the same exact reaction.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's like two parallel worlds, and we get into when she finally signs onto One Tree Hill and the And her experience with the creator. Exactly. Exactly. And it's just like, man, it's just all over. It's tough. That's why I feel like it was very well written because she gives you a broad scope of her experience so that it's not so easy to be like, she's just weak, or she's just so dumb to be manipulated. It's like she really puts all the breadcrumbs of why she made the decisions she made or why she believed what she believed.
SPEAKER_02:That's why I felt like it was such a cautionary tale because we all think we're too smart to fall for a cult. But guess what? We ain't. So let's get to Wentry Hill. Let's get Joy out to LA. So she gets this blessing from her grandmother, and her family decides to move to New Jersey. When her grandmother passes away, she leaves her house there to them. She misses her life in Texas, especially the community that she built at the theater, but she's excited to be close to New York and she's auditioning a lot and getting close on things. But she and her family are feeling lonely and they need to find their church community. And they do. And this is where she meets her first love, Blue Eyes, is what she refers to him as in the memoir. Joy loves Blue Eyes. She falls in love with him. So work is going well for her, like I said, but her family life is not. Her parents' marriage is dissolving. They argue all the time. Blue eyes is there for her, but he's dating this other girl. And so she does this thing where, like, she doesn't want to seem high maintenance. It's very Taylor Swift.
SPEAKER_00:You belong with me. I could not stop thinking about that music video while I read this part.
SPEAKER_02:Which made me really sad because he was like her best friend and she still couldn't be her authentic self with him. And talked to him about this really difficult thing. Like your parents divorcing, it's not an easy thing, especially when you're Christian. I feel like there's a weight on top of that. So they end up getting divorced. Her father very quickly remarries, and she writes about the routine shouting matches she would have with her mother. And one night, Joy finally yells, fuck. She had never cursed because you know, good Christians don't curse. And her mother slaps her. And then she rushes out of the house, and Joy tries to drive away, but her mother jumps in front of the car to literally stop her. I mean, it felt like I was there. Like I could see this scene playing out, and it felt visceral. And while I never had such an intense fight with my mother, I feel like maybe you Oh, I've had plenty. Have had plenty. What is the most intense fight you've had with your mom?
SPEAKER_01:Has it ever gotten physical? Has your mom ever slept with you? Are you kidding me? My mom was a okay, so American standards. Your mom was abusive. 1000%. American standards, my mom was extremely abusive. From Asian standards, it's like, oh, it's so common. Like you ask any other first generation Asian, then it's like, oh, whatever. Like we all get beat. 1,000%.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, wait, but were you beat with a belt?
SPEAKER_01:No. Her choice of weapon, depending on her rage, would be a feather duster, literally like a feather duster, and it's a bamboo stick at the end. It's classic Asian weapon. And then if she's just rage, it's whatever she can get her hands on. Right. Like truly. She would just start smacking you with it. Face, body, or whatever. Yeah, whatever she could, whatever she could do. I mean, growing up when we were little, it was more structured. Like if we did something bad, we're gonna get spankings. And that was, but the it was more of as you get older talking back, and like now she looks at you like you're out of control. That's when it was just more just rage and fights. I can't say what the worst one is because truly I don't really remember too much of it back in the. I'm telling it just happened so often. Like I kind of in one ear, out the other, just forget about it.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:But the latest one would probably be the time where my sister and I, our whole family, actually, my dad too, we call it doomsday because it was just my mom is to give context, my mom has severe anxiety, like has a lot of mental issues, but also comes up in a generation where none of that can be addressed. None of it can be addressed. There's no, there's there's not enough education to even begin to self-reflect. So it's just something we all have to, everyone around her has to deal with. Yeah. But yeah, we got in a huge, huge fight once. Granted, I had had some alcohol in me. So normally when my mom goes off, it's just like roll your eyes, whatever. The worst fights are when you engage, and then now there's a back and forth. And the the truth is, there's not even a rational thought on her mind. What she's saying doesn't even make sense. So there's no way to dial it down. Yeah, so it was my mistake for being tipsy and like I'm not putting up with this, but yeah, we all call it doomsday, and she just blew up.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so Joy and her mother's relationship is very strained after this moment. Her mother remarries, moves across the country the day after Joy graduates high school. That whole passage was really heartbreaking too because she was just basically like, bye, I'm leaving, like, good luck packing up the house, 18-year-old.
SPEAKER_01:I know it's uh I wish we could get a little more insight to what the mom was going through because I'm sure she's a Christian and getting divorced and seeing her ex-husband marry so quickly. It's like, I wonder what she was going through. Or was there substance to like I just have so many questions too? Totally, totally.
SPEAKER_02:If obviously the the purpose of this book was the cult and her experience there. So she did have to kind of quickly just give us these, you know, small moments, but I completely agree. Especially now, it does seem like she ends in a good place with both of her parents.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Yeah. But this is kind of the precursors of why she is so vulnerable. Yeah, you know, it's not like she had a great relationship with both parents.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. So she's very lonely. She moves to New York because at this point she's a regular on guiding light, and she feels pretty happy. She finds a church there, things are going well until she decides not to re-up her contract on guiding light because she wants to pursue, you know, more of a film career, and the roles are just not there. Her money's drawing up, and she realizes it's time for her to go to LA. Before she moves, however, she and Blue Eyes share a kiss. But then he goes off to college and she's kind of back to this wait, what are we situation? Which blue eyes kind of did her dirty a little bit. And she also didn't really like later, she'll kind of find the nerve to actually address what's happening between them, but in that way that is so scary when you like someone and they give you these breadcrumbs, and you're like, I will gobble these up and I'll wait for the next one instead of asking you what it all means, you know. And you're so young too. There's a lot happening at this age. So she moves to LA where she writes, everything felt like a struggle, and I really felt alone. Things are still strained with her mother. Her father has a new family. She has this roommate, Mina, who tells her about this Bible study that she recently joined. And Joy is finally convinced to go after 9 11 happens. And Joy is understandably devastated, as we all were, but New York was her home. She writes, I was stuck, unable to help, unable to connect, unsure how to grieve. That really is the catalyst. She's feeling really low, and she needs to turn to God in this moment. So she goes to Bible study at the Van Hewitt's.
SPEAKER_00:And it seems like it starts off normal to her. Like there's a lot of hugging happening, which, you know, to me already was like, I mean, I'm a hugger, but not like, I don't know. Yeah, like that the hugging kind of was a little weird to me.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think that that's I think that that's their way of just accepting people, especially when you're new to a city.
SPEAKER_02:I'm a hugger, so I kind of feel like You know, I am too, but I feel like I and I read this book knowing that it all eventually leads to a cult too. So I'm constantly like, oh, that's weird behavior.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, that's weird behavior.
SPEAKER_02:Um yeah, you're right. And the brothers that lead the original Bible study seem really trustworthy and earnest and like their hearts are in the right place. And I mean, I had a Bible study in high school where me and my friends would get together and just like share my book.
SPEAKER_01:We did? Yeah. Okay. This part really like that one part where she's like 9-11, you know, she moved to LA and was doing this Bible study, made me realize, oh my gosh, she's much older. Like I watched One Tree Hill thinking we're close than age. And I was like, I remember exactly where I was during 9-11. And I was not close to where she was. Like much older than us.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we were younger. We were we did not quite understand the grasp. I mean, I understood that something really, really bad was happening, but there was no- We were in school when it happened. We were in school when it happened. Yep. No, I'll never forget that day. And so this becomes her back to back to joy in the Bible study. This becomes her core group. There's about 15 of them, and they all become really immersed in one another's lives. She's finally found her people, right? And LA is a can be a very lonely place when you first move here, and especially compared to New York, like it's all so spread out. Yeah. There's not like a sense of community right around you. They call her precious daughter, and the adults, Ed and Pam, take on the role of her spiritual parents. And it kind of goes on for this lovely little way for about six months.
SPEAKER_01:See, that's the part that I'm like, not the hugs. It's the daughter part that's like, excuse you? No.
SPEAKER_02:I know, but she needed that because she didn't have, yeah, she didn't have a good relationship with her parents. And so she was into it. And, you know, at this point it's still just like lovely. But then Les shows up and there's a shift in the energy. Though he's good friends with the Van Hewits. The story had been that he had been running a church and was persecuted after, quote, doing his best to get a congregation out of the rigid mindset of structure and religion. And his family's run out of that town. Joy has this immediate bad reaction to him. Hello, instincts. But she very quickly tells herself that she's just being pretentious and needs to be more accepting. Plus, Ed tells her that Les used to pastor with the pastor from her beloved New York church, and so she's like, oh, okay, he must be good, right? Meanwhile, Joy's booking jobs, she's paying the bills, the steady work plus her newfound community makes her feel like coming to LA was the right move. Les starts visiting the Bible study often, and soon he takes over the Bible study. She writes that nobody really seems to notice, and Joy learns more about Les, that he was a sniper in the Marines, and apparently he was so good that they asked him to train the whole platoon when he was only a private first class.
SPEAKER_00:So, like the lies are coming, they're starting, right? We're all just like, okay.
SPEAKER_02:He starts to give all these lessons and ways to live, and I mean that's what pastors do. And he tells one girl to quote, love the negativity out of her brother. And you can choose what you receive being said to you. Don't allow someone to lie about your identity. If someone wants to label you against the loving truth of who you are, you are empowered to make the declaration, I don't receive that. It doesn't matter who they are, a stranger, a parent, don't accept that. What are your thoughts on that?
SPEAKER_01:I feel like this is the perfect transition into a cold because it feels very um empowering. Empowering, truly. I mean, in the context of that example, it was not because I think this girl was talking about how her brother was annoying her or something, whatever, but it wasn't that great of an example. But in terms of someone saying, like, don't let someone else's negativity define you, it's like, you're right. I can be sure of myself, I can be confident. But those are kind of knowing that this is a cult, that these are the stepping stones to add more control and manipulation. And that's where it gets tricky because it's a fine line. You don't have to receive it from strangers, friends, family. It's like, this is why people need a sense of community. You need close people, whether that's family or chosen friends or chosen family. I mean, it's like you have to have people that you trust to call you out. Exactly. The brutal honesty to construct whatever you want to call it, constructive criticism. But you need times to self-reflect. That is literally what growing is, you know, is challenging yourself to be better and to just not listen to anyone and be like, I am me. That's very egotistical.
SPEAKER_02:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01:But there needs to be a balance. Like there are other times where it's like you can't be swayed by just anyone talking to you, you know? Sure. So this is such an interesting one where half of it is so great, but then you see how he like slides the parents, siblings. It's like, well, wait, when you depending on your relationship with them. Well, and especially he'll go on to be like, and accept me.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it's also I can tell you what your truth is.
SPEAKER_01:And it's also like, oh, but you're the father now, like you're the father that I need to listen to. Yeah. It's just weird. A lot of the stuff that you were just saying, too. Now that we know, obviously, and have finished the book, it's just so hypocritical where he wanted to leave because he wanted to break the rigid structures. And it's like, bro, what are you doing?
SPEAKER_02:No, he he is a master manipulator, this person. I mean, he's still, if you Google him, you will find his counseling services, which she kind of brings up later. And he's got no credentials to do that. But because he's a pastor, he there's like a loophole. There's like a money management firm that he owns.
SPEAKER_01:It's like a talent agency, too.
SPEAKER_02:It's very weird, dude. It's very weird. And I completely agree with you. I feel like in a vacuum, so many things that a lot of pastors say are beautiful. And like this idea of self-empowerment and own your truth. And honestly, it made me think would he say the same thing to a trans person? Because that feels very hypocritical if you're saying this to a cis straight person. But like, would you encourage a trans person to own their truth? Because Christianity doesn't do that. So it's so confusing. And yeah, especially just like reading this, knowing what we know, everything that he says. I'm just like, ooh, what are you really? Like, what are you really trying to do here with this?
SPEAKER_01:Were you able to find this guy online?
SPEAKER_02:Because I would love to see a photo of this person. I'll show you. I'll show you later. We will not be doxing him on the show, but I'll show you. Les tells Joy that she's been viewing herself as second best and she needs to realize she's gold, which again is beautiful. And like, like you were saying, right? She's become, she's getting close to these things and her confidence is kind of getting shot. So to have somebody say, hey, value yourself. You are number one. You have to believe it. I mean, that advice takes you really far in the business. It does. Like I remember when I was, you know, first auditioning, my managers would be like, you just never want to seem desperate. Throw your sides away as soon as you leave the room. In college, our teachers would tell us, book something right after your audition so that you have that to look forward to, so that you can just put your audition out of your mind.
SPEAKER_04:Oh, interesting.
SPEAKER_02:I know it's like really good advice. Now everything's on tape. But yeah, so much in life is believing you can do something, right? And like giving yourself that confidence. But again, the entire time I was just like, he's love bombing her, which is step one of a cult.
SPEAKER_01:That that is why this subject matter is so nuanced because there's no black and white textbook. Here's how you well, actually, there kind of is, here's how you can tell if you're in a cult. But by the time you're in it, all these steps have already been taken that it's harder to get out or harder to believe that because you have bought into all these smaller positive, you know, beliefs or manipulations, however you want to say it. It's just to me, how do you identify something when you're just slowly sliding in?
SPEAKER_02:Well, she will give us a concrete identifier at the end. Because then I did really appreciate that because you are so right. At this point, this to me, if they didn't move to Idaho and create a house and literally do the thing where you pull people away, yeah. The isolation. This is just a pastor who sometimes I think overreaches and who's trying to be a little too involved in these people's lives. So, not a lot of red flags yet. Okay, so Joy goes all in on the let go and let God philosophy. She even writes that she would pray to God about what to wear every day. And she tells her dad this. And her dad is like, huh? She writes, Dad, I think God cares about every single detail of our lives. I'm asking God for guidance on everything, what auditions to go to, what friends to hang with, what times. I just think if I'm going to surrender to Jesus, I need to fully surrender. And her father's reaction is not what she expects. He's like, didn't he give you the autonomy to make decisions like those yourself? That part I was kind of like, Way to go, Dad. Way to go, Dad. But I've sort of been where joy was. There are times where I wanted so badly to believe that God did have a plan for me and that, you know, whatever job I booked was just part of a bigger plan that I really didn't want that autonomy. Like I wanted to just surrender to God's will and it made some things a lot easier to accept. But ultimately, I don't believe that we don't have any free will. What about you?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, that's the thing though. I don't really feel like that's she does have free will. I think where it gets tricky is when people start saying they hear God's voice. Well, she says that. That's where it gets tricky, but like that's fine. Ask him. And if you feel a gut feeling towards like it's perspective. You could say that that's God's voice. You could say that that's your own instincts. Like, whatever, you know, it's just perspective and whatever helps you get through the day. But yes, that's where it does get tricky when you hear people say, like, well, I heard him, he told me to do this, or he does, it's like, okay, well, now it's yeah. What I always wondered, what do they hear? Like, what does God's voice sound like? I've actually asked someone this, and they're just like, Well, sounds like my version of God. It's like, but what does that sound like?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. She writes about hearing a message from God. And when she's in New York, she has this moment where she is kind of doubting whether he exists, and she just hears slash feels him say, like, never doubt that I am real, you know? And yeah, like I feel like I've had those moments where I felt God's presence when like I needed. Definitely, yeah. But yeah, people who don't believe in free will, I just think God's got too like he's too busy.
SPEAKER_01:Like it's little in the Bible, though. That's what I don't understand. It's in the Bible that we have free will. That is why we're sinners. Right. Like you're right. Literally, we have free will. So like why are you discussion? Yeah, we have we are presented with a choice. Do we want to go God's path or go the devil's path? And you get to heaven if you make the right choices. He took away choices. I think the idea is just that God is all-knowing, He knows what your path is already. Right. Like I never took that as he's, I mean, technically you could say he's already decided it, but within that is you're making your choices and you get again, these are all similar, like it's manifestation. You can call it whatever you want. They mirror similar thoughts and different belief systems or philosophies. It's so interesting.
SPEAKER_02:I think it's just sometimes life feels so hard. I have had that experience of just like, I just want to throw my arms up in the air and be like, somebody else, take over deal.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, ODP. Jesus, take the wheel. Jesus, take that wheel.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, so her father starts asking Joy more questions about this new Bible study that she's attending. His red flags are going up, and Joy is saddened by her father's lack of understanding. She writes, This was the first time I felt maybe I understood something about God better than my father did. He comes to visit, and after attending, he seems a little bit pacified, but then her mother comes to visit for her 21st birthday. She throws this party and her mom is talking to Pam. Joy writes about seeing across the party, her mother's face just kind of being like, What are you saying, lady? Like, I'm not buying this. And so it's kind of at this point that Joy starts pulling away from her parents. They're not supporting her the way that she feels she needs to be supported. In fact, they're kind of encouraging her to critically think when she doesn't feel like she needs to do that at this point. Also, this birthday, Blue Eyes doesn't call or text her. And this is her 21st birthday, so this is a really big deal. And she feels so sad. She's gutted, and she feels like she needs a sign from God. Her friends get engaged, and this prompts her to finally tell Blue Eyes how she feels. And he doesn't reciprocate. She realizes that she needs to move past him. She tells Pam all about this, and Pam says that she's proud of her. Quote, you have let go of the idol you had put in place of God. I'm so inspired by your faith. I thought that was really weird. I felt like that was a very culty thing to say. Like, crushes our idol.
SPEAKER_00:Like, I mean, I get that sometimes it feels like that, but Joy was very all in on the Bible study. This boy was not her idol. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I don't know. Okay. Pam encourages Joy to go to Idaho, where at this point Les had taken over the Van Hewitt family home there and created what everyone was calling a God spa. So this is another step in a cult. Isolate. She gets there, and the people who are living there, these strangers to Joy, know a lot about her. And this kind of dings in her head, but she's like, oh no, it must just be Les and Pam wanting to bring us all together. She also doesn't tell her parents that she's going to Idaho. She writes, The more I folded into Less and Pam's world, and let me remind you that Les and Pam are not the married couple. Pam and Ed are the married couple. Les is a separate guy. The more misunderstood by my parents I felt, and the less that I trusted them. She meets the group here, including this guy Kurt and his wife, who gives her bad vibes and Les's sons. One she calls Quiet Boy. And that's another step in the cult is kind of getting people to renounce their loved ones, remove themselves from their loved ones, remove themselves from any like critical thinking or accountability that can be happening. So in Joy Lands, she has a bad cough. And she writes about how somebody hands her this red bottle and she takes some and then she goes to sleep for two days. But her cough is gone. And she's very quick to find out that she was handed hydrocodone and it was Kurt's prescription. When she finally checks her phone, she has 26 missed calls, 19 from her mom, five from her dad, two from another friend. Her mom is understandably upset. She doesn't even like these people that Joy has jetted off to see. Joy tells her that she's an adult with her own money and can make her own decisions. And of course, Pam is very proud of her for setting boundaries. She writes, Later I would come to see those two weeks in Idaho as the turning point. Had I stayed in LA depressed and mopy over blue eyes, would I have avoided it all? Possibly, but then I wouldn't have had Rosie. I think about that every time I tell my story. It was all worth it for her. Alright, so Les starts going in strong now. He deems himself Joy's spiritual authority. She writes, I wish it had occurred to me in that moment to ask him one question. Who has spiritual authority over you?
SPEAKER_03:Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02:But she doesn't. She just smiles and accepts it. Okay, so she's getting further sucked into the cult in the family when she gets the audition for One Tree Hill, originally called Ravens. Joy isn't sure about going in for it. She wants film roles and TV actors at the time, there wasn't a lot of crossover like there is now. Months later, she gets another call. The pilot got picked up and they're recasting the role that she was supposed to go out for originally. And they're specifically asking for Joy. The WB loves her already. Which side note, like, was it on you? It was WB, right? Before CW? Yeah. Okay. She agrees to audition, but her rep tells her, I have a direct quote I've been told to relay to you to make sure that you know exactly what you're getting into before you sign this contract. The show is about fucking and sucking. And if she's gonna have a problem with that, she shouldn't come in tomorrow.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, I gasped at that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, seriously. First off, that show is not about fucking and sucking. It really isn't. It really, really isn't.
SPEAKER_02:And also knowing what we know now about the creator, and I will link an article where Hillary Burton comes forward really about the abuse that happened on the set of One Tree Hill. And Joey writes about it a little bit, about how the girls were kind of like pitted against one another. They've all been very vocal about that now. And all this came out a few years ago. But holy crap, what a gross way to start her One Tree Hill journey.
SPEAKER_01:It's just like we know you're a Christian. Purposely chose very vulgar words to be like you are either all in or how did they know she was Christian? I thought that that's what they kind of said. Like, we know that's true.
SPEAKER_02:I guess she's I think she kind of turned it down maybe originally. No, because she didn't, but that's the shocking thing is they reached out to her.
SPEAKER_01:So it's like you want her.
SPEAKER_02:So but you're Well the network liked her. That was the thing. And then the creator. I see. The creator. Yeah. So I don't know. It is interesting how the network, I mean, because she did risque roles. She wasn't like one of those Christian actresses who wouldn't do the darker things. God, the audacity of that man. Ugh. Anyways, we know the rest. She gets the job. Like I said earlier, she doesn't really go into as much Wentry Hill stuff as maybe we were all hoping for, but it's really because we realized she purposefully was told to isolate herself from the cast to keep her purity or whatever. And that made me so satisfied.
SPEAKER_01:I know. It's like this once-in-a-lifetime experience getting this role, and she doesn't even get to enjoy it. She really doesn't.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, these kids were on top of the frickin' world for a moment, like zeitgeist situation. And you can really feel her loneliness on the page, her desire to bond with her castmates, but the conflicting feelings of feeling like she won't be accepted and understood, and the fear that she'll quote, lose all the spiritual ground I'd gained in order to fit in with them. She's also feeling mixed about having to leave this family and move to North Carolina. She feels like maybe she's not quite ready for it. Is she spiritually strong enough? Les and the family are super supportive, though, because Joy's gonna be making bank. All right. They pray over her and she's on her way. Okay, so kind of very quickly into her time on Wondering Hill, Les and Kurt go to visit her and they ask her for money to buy this dilapidated motel near the big house, that's the house in Idaho, spinning it as a business opportunity for her and the family. They actually call it a hotel, but after looking at the pictures and seeing it's clearly a motel, Joy calls it that and it's very quickly reprimanded. She writes, right, it's not a woman's job to correct a man. That's what she was being taught. Joy gives$10,000 to this hotel situation because at this point she thinks that Les is this amazing person and he's gonna facilitate ministry there and help people, right? Gosh, once money gets involved like that, it's just like, come on. I know, I know.
SPEAKER_01:That's the frustrating part.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And she really writes a lot about wanting to spend more time with her cast and crew of One Tree Hill and making friendships, especially Paul Johansson, like I said earlier, who played Dan. And you get a sense that he's actually really great about walking that fine line with her because he's smart enough not to be like, hey, I think you're in a cult. But he just asks questions. He meets Pam at a certain point and he says, Oh, you know, she's really particular about the words she uses.
SPEAKER_01:Just kind of like, hey, maybe you should think about this. Well, yeah, if you think of how savvy they have to be to lure you in, you kind of have to be just as savvy to lure them out, you know?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, that's so true. That's so true. There's a part where she moves from a house that she had been renting closer to town because she wanted to be closer to the action and less and the family freak out. They're like, How dare you make this decision without letting us know? And she's like, Oh, I didn't think it would be that big of a deal. But they need to have control of her, but she's in a different location. They're like trying to tighten their grip, you know?
SPEAKER_01:This is the part where I wish there was more inner dialogue of why she conceded so often. I wanted to believe that she's just such a people pleaser. Yeah. Why?
SPEAKER_02:Like, why did you I know it felt like there was a light at the end of the tunnel for her at this point before she got in, where she couldn't escape because she actually had an out every 10 months to go film this show. I mean, at this point, shows were still 22 episodes. She is not under their watch for way more of her life than exactly.
SPEAKER_01:That's why I was just like, is it just like say it? Is it just, you know, I needed a family, I didn't have anyone, I was alone. She was making herself alone to fit this group. I just wish we got a little more insight as to why she was justifying those decisions in the meantime. I think that's probably hard though when you're out of it now and looking back.
SPEAKER_02:Because you do, you see her struggle with it when she tries to move in. She even starts dating this guy who's not in the cult and they get engaged and less, and the family is very quickly to be like, we don't think this is a good idea, and she breaks off the engagement. So, yeah, you're right. There are a lot of these instances. And I think a big thing is because the creator of One Tree Hill was also driving a wedge between the girls specifically, which she doesn't talk about as much, but we do know now because of other accounts. And I think that's what was happening. She was kind of in three cults at once. She was in the family, she was in the Hollywood cult. And then it does feel like One Tree Hill itself almost had this like not a cult to where everybody there was an abusive situation coming out. Manipulated situation. Controlling, yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I know. I wish she could have gone into more of that too, but she also had to condense these years down because we have to get to her marrying Quiet Boy, Les's son, and then, you know, getting out. She would go live at the big house in between seasons of Wentry Hill and Christmas break. She is kind of in a different time zone, right? So she comes downstairs. She's going from East Coast to West Coast. She comes downstairs, it's still dark, and she overhears Kurt and Les having this conversation in the dark. She's like, This is weird. What's going on? I think without her saying it too much, she just She didn't want to see, so she didn't look. You know what I mean? She like wasn't trying to look too hard. At this point, she has money committed to this place. Yeah. She doesn't want these people to be bad people. So she's gonna kind of ignore. She's gonna see what she wants to see. She's gonna see what she wants to see. And this is also when Les encourages Joy to talk to the group, to bring her diary and to basically like spill her truths so that everyone can support her. It was very weird. It felt like a way for him to get emotional blackmail stuff. He also calls her baby a lot, which really creeped me out as I read the memoir.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, but it's also, I mean, she talks about having these gut feelings or these instincts during all these kind of small little moments where it's like, this doesn't feel right. And I think that that's the thing, is it's kind of crazy. Your body knows. Yeah. Your body really knows. I think the hard part is why, you know, again, vulnerability is do you trust yourself though? A lot of people don't trust.
SPEAKER_02:Well, she's looking around and everybody else is all in, pretty much. She doesn't know that there are a couple of people who are also starting to feel the way that she's feeling. They're not communicating with each other because that's what Les has intentionally set up. Yeah. You know? And she does have this female figure, Pam, who is just as much a manipulator as Les, who's just all in on it too. It's a just a very confusing situation for her to be in. During this clandestine conversation, Kurt and Les are talking about this one woman who's sort of asking too many questions, and they're like, oh, she's bipolar, and her husband is too. And this is one of the brothers that was leading the OG Bible study. And she overhears one of them say that kind of independence can open up a door to give the enemy a foothold. Basically, critical thinking can ruin everything for Les. And Joy doesn't quite know what to make out of this conversation, but she definitely feels uneasy, like you said. But she feels uneasy about the woman and her husband. She writes, I hate that my suspicion automatically landed on them rather than the obvious, devious scheming of Les and Kurt. Ugh. And then this is where she gets into talking about she likes to have to read her journal to everyone. And this happens for hours, and it's just this emotionally exhausting thing. And all right, she's still very sucked into this cult, this family. After the failed engagement, she's leaning on Pam even more to make decisions for her. Again, she's being made to feel like she is not able to make the right decisions for herself, right? Like they jump in on her about this fiance, they jump on her about moving. So she's like, okay, you guys know best. I'll just let you decide for me. Meanwhile, she's been asked to go on the one trio concert tour. Okay, remember when the music from the show? I did not know a singer. I did not know that there was a concert tour. I remember that the music was a really big thing, especially when Haley, the character, is like a singing artist and goes on tour with Tyler Hilton. And that's exactly what this is mimicking, this concert tour. She's asked to come to a couple of the stops on the tour. She's bonding with Tyler Hilton, having a good time. And then he kind of starts pulling away from her. And he's like, Yeah, so you know, my manager was like, Maybe I really shouldn't be seen with you because you're in a cult.
SPEAKER_00:And she's like, What? No, I'm not. And I love that he's just kind of like, Yeah, you're an occult, so I probably shouldn't be seen with you. I can imagine. But is that the first time someone just calls it out to her?
SPEAKER_02:That's my recollection. Yeah. Interesting. But that's when the word and the rumors and the whispers start really happening. It's on the message boards, like I said. And she writes about walking into a room on set and everybody kind of getting quiet. A lot more stuff happens. You know, we don't have time to get into all of it. The motel ends up failing. Les and Kurt want to buy a restaurant, and they use Joy's money to do that. Pampa and Les opened this counseling service, like I said, even though none of them have the credentials. People start coupling off, leaving Joy to feel even more lonely. And so she ends up settling for Les's son, Quiet Boy. She doesn't call him Quiet Boy in the prologue, but as soon as she introduced him way back at the beginning of the memoir when she first goes to the Idaho house, I was like, ooh, that's the one you're gonna end up with, isn't it? And she's Les' son. She never talks about him being attractive or even nice.
SPEAKER_01:Well, she she did start having a crush on him, remember? I think because she well, sort of like it was because he was quiet and she was more just like curious. And also, I think it was by default. I don't know if you've ever been in this situation where like everyone pairs off and is like, he's kind of like the one left. You're like, I guess he's kind of cute. Totally. She's like convincing herself.
SPEAKER_02:See it. Leading up to their wedding, she starts getting really depressed and she starts really questioning it. Pam, of course, is like, oh no, don't you like this is God's will. And she's basically told, emotions will fall in line, God first. I thought that was really sad. And also, like, Pam acted as her mother at the wedding, and her own mother was just a guest. That was very, very sad. She writes about people in their family getting emails from past parishioners of Less's warning them all about him and his cult, but Les always had an explanation as to why this person or that person was out to get him with all these lies. She writes, these warnings only fed the us versus them narrative that I needed to believe. I was too far in. I'd sacrificed too much by now to start doubting. There you go. There you go. There's that reflection that you needed, that interesting. She's pop committed. She's pop literally, she's like financially pop committed to it.
SPEAKER_01:Wait, wait, this is her ex-husband? Is that him? Yeah.
unknown:Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, he's not unattractive. Okay. I pictured in the book someone completely different, I guess. You're right. He's like, he's not like he's not how, why. I could see if somebody like that has a personality, could definitely get.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. But his personality seemed to only be anger and quietness. So at this point, Joy is just going through the motions. She writes, every step of the way, I kept thinking something would click and suddenly it would all feel right. This is her relationship with Quiet Boy, but it never does. At one point, Joy talks to Harker and his wife, and these are the two that are kind of questioning the family and the cult about being unhappy. And when Quiet Boy hears this, he forbids her from interacting with them because he has spiritual authority over her in the household. And she pushes back on this and he's like, Oh, why won't you just obey me?
SPEAKER_00:I love that she actually uses the word ug.
SPEAKER_02:And the word obey stops her in her tracks. She starts laughing at this absurd situation that she's found herself in, but she's not really sure what to do because divorce is not an option. Les steps in and says that Quiet Boy is coming back to Idaho with him. Because at this point, he had moved to North Carolina with her because they're married. She writes, Later, as I learned more about cults, I could come to understand that Les likely proposed this separation in the hope that by separating us physically, he eliminated the possibility of me ending the marriage out of sheer exhaustion. But being told in so many words that you're so difficult to be around that your husband has to literally live on the other side of the country to manage being married to you was a pretty severe blow to my self-worth. This, I imagine, Les also expected. Since I had been growing more confident and defiant, this move knocked me back down into longing for validation. Yeah, Les doesn't want to lose her. She's their money pot. Yeah. You know what I mean? And we will find out just how much of a money pot very soon. So this is another really sad part. You kind of brought this up earlier. She writes about developing her own projects because her husband started being very vocal about what she could and could not do. And she writes this apparently amazing musical version of the notebook. I would love to see this by the way. I know. And she had set it up for herself to be Allie. But then when it comes time to actually do the like the showcase, I forget what's the word. What is it? The previews to do the show and invite the Broadway producer so that, you know, hopefully a Broadway producer would get on board. Quiet Boy says that she can't play Allie because Allie has to kiss the male co-star. And she's heartbroken, but obviously she's worked so hard on this musical that she just wants it to happen. And later she'll kind of put two and two together that her reputation of being involved with a cult was one of the swaying decisions for the studio that owned the rights to the notebook not to relinquish those rights to her so that she actually could pursue this as a real show because they didn't want the notebook to be associated with a cult. That's so sad. Yeah, I I feel like she didn't even realize how far reaching these rumors were, which is kind of crazy. Because I mean, I definitely didn't hear them. Not come on, we're in Houston, Texas. Like we're the last to hear everything. But it's no idea. It was kind of weird. It was like it felt like a weird undercover Hollywood secret because like there was nothing in the tabloids or anything like that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, maybe. Maybe there was, but this industry is much smaller than you think. So I'm sure just word gets around and people are like, oh no, no. It's just sad to see because she was seeking so much love and validation, this group ended up holding her back from so much that would have given her exactly what she'd been looking for all along. Yes. In her own way and on her own terms.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So before, you know, she would walk into rooms and people would fall silent, or people would kind of giggle about these rumors on set. Now people were looking at her with alarm or even fear. She writes, more and more I felt shunned. It was easier to see myself as a victim rather than someone who entered a place full of open arms and chose to turn their back. And that's exactly how Les wants her to feel. Only the family loves her. Only the family understands her, knows what's best. That's the magic formula. These rumors reach her label and she gets dropped from her label, and the family just keeps coming for her money. At first she'd question it, but then she just stops and she writes, The more I complied, the more numb I became, and the easier things got. I found out that when the numbness lasts for long enough, it bears a striking resemblance to peace. So that's like that is really sad, but it's also such a great moment for reflection for all of us in our own lives. Like, what are we fooling ourselves into thinking we're peaceful about when really we've just succumbed to something or succumbed to numbness, you know?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean it's such a great description. But a lot of people do that. And honestly, most men do that. It's like they just avoid the emotions, go numb because it feels peaceful. Like not feeling is peaceful.
SPEAKER_02:I mean, it's true. It's really true. She writes, the next three years were a loop of this, but then something changes. Hillary and Chad leave One Tree Hill. This is where they do the weird time jump. This is when I stopped watching. And she wants to leave too. She's ready to move on from the show, but Les does not want the money train to stop rolling. So he encourages her to recommit to the show.
SPEAKER_01:How does that even make sense? Someone who is trying to separate you from these people, not to be into Hollywood, but at the same time, but keep doing it.
SPEAKER_02:Like what? Yeah, he says something like God is not done with you on your time here or something. Yeah. She writes, by 2010, I thought the lack of constant external conflict meant QB and I were doing well enough to try to have a baby. It was pure delusion. I had never been less healthy or happy or further from God. It was hell. Then just as my dad told me all those years ago, a light began to slowly turn on and the cracks started to show. Oh my god, I just got chills. Why? Love that. Okay, so here are the cracks. One of the family members admits to stealing money from Joy and QB, but really it's Joy's money. Wait, QB is Quiet Boy, right? Yes. Sorry. To gamble. She confesses it and then she's like, by the way, I'm sorry. And Les is like, we accept your apology. But Joy is pissed because Joy's like, excuse me, that's my money. Mm-hmm. Another crack. Quiet Boy starts to become physically violent. When Joy is six months pregnant, he hurls a metal laundry basket at a wall and smashes a bunch of pottery outside as he leaves their house. So now Joy is scared. She hadn't really been living with him. So she hadn't really been privy to these emotional outbursts, I guess. Another crack. One tree hill ends, and she realizes that she does not want to go back and bring her daughter there either. It no longer feels like home. Parker and his wife, these are the two that had been questioning things. They leave the family. They had gotten curious, had tried on other congregations. He sends them all this email and he writes, We realized we didn't want unity at the expense of truth. And that is such a fucking great line. That kind of feels like what's happening in our world right now. There's like a weird unity at the expense of truth. You know what I mean? But them leaving gives Joy hope that maybe one day she and Rosie can step away from this because she's had her daughter at this point. Tension is building in the family. Kurt and another member get into a physical fight after a softball game when Kurt, who's this Christian man, uses a horrible racial slur. And after this night, Joy writes that she's bombarded with dreams about being rescued from catastrophes and other natural disasters. And I wrote, There's God. Mm-hmm. There's God giving you your sign. The prologue moment happens. She tells her mother everything, and her mother tells her that she'd been praying for this day. And I thought that was really lovely. All along her mother stayed in contact with her, had never pushed or baited. She waited and trusted that Joy would eventually see the family for the cult that it was.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And like her mother may have done some things that weren't right along the way, like the fights with Joy, leaving her to like pack up the house. But this was a true supportive parent move. Like she didn't let Joy go. She hung on to whatever piece of joy that she could and just prayed for the day that her daughter would see the forest from the trees.
SPEAKER_01:And it's also like they had such a tough relationship during that time period that had she have pushed, it would have just pushed her further away and deeper into the cult.
SPEAKER_02:Escaping the cult is not simple. She writes later, as my case dragged on for years, I would come to learn more about the legal system and how in family court, any abuse besides physical, is completely dismissed and ignored. There's even less sympathy for cult members. Hey lady, you're a grown-up. If you wanted to turn over your autonomy to some sociopath leading a little religious club, that's on you. That part really bummed me out. I understand it because evidence is a physical thing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, there's no tangible evidence to prove manipulation. Yeah, we know so much of it exists. It feels like there's gotta be a way to get in. It's recordings, or you know, like you you really gotta go after them. But when you're genuinely manipulated, you're not thinking to do any of that stuff. No, you're really not. Because by the time you're getting out, you're out. That's the part though where it's like the money. The money is what she could get. And that's what pissed me off in the end that she didn't get the money.
SPEAKER_02:I know, I know. But oh my god, does her dad come through for her? This was amazing. Her father had spent years compiling evidence against Les. She writes, after I cut him out, I thought he'd simply try to forget about me and move on with his life. Instead, he devoted his time to studying cults, learning how they worked, and chasing down any information he could find out about Les. Ugh, while looking at it all, she realizes how gullible and naive she'd been. I mean, it gets really dark. There are allegations of sexual misconduct against Les. She writes, it was page after page of emails, letters, newspaper clippings, all about how Les had wrought destruction in the lives of everyone who came into his path. My dad mapped out a timeline. He had compiled lists of known associates and those with one terrible story after another. All these years he had been planning for this day. This is how we get this motherfucker, he said. Oh, I loved it. I loved it. It's from one of these people on the list that her dad had compiled that she learns about a woman named Alice. Alice tells her how Kurt had taken her to the lake, given her medicine for a cough. She passed out for an unknown number of hours, and she only remembers waking up naked in a bathtub with Kurt over her. Alice tells Les about this and is sent back to live with Kurt and his wife because Les felt Kurt had a repentant heart. Joy hears this story and she's like, holy shit, something really bad could have happened to me. And she also realizes that there's a pattern of Kurt and Les labeling challenging women as bipolar. The one thing as I'm reading this book, knowing that Les and Kurt are still walking free, is really fucking infuriating.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it's wild to think that there are many people, particularly many men, who walk around really truly feeling like untouchable. Untouchable. I can do whatever I want and you can't get me. And if you even try, like they're that fucking confident. They are. It's wild.
SPEAKER_02:They are. Because they rely on the silence of women. And I mean, this woman, Alice, good for her for sharing her story with Joy, but she was kind of, she didn't want to, but she was compelled to do so after thinking about it. But the women are often not believed. So they're really like, what is she knew Joy would believe her, but I understand why she, well, first off, she tried, she went to Les, and Les was like, we don't care because he says he's sorry. Yeah. You know? And then I'm sure statute of limitation, like, you know, and she could never prove anything happened. We live in a world where women are not believed. It just takes really strong, courageous women like Chanel Miller. I did an episode about her memoir, Know My Name. And these women are incredible to come forward because they risk and sacrifice everything. And to what end? So, you know.
SPEAKER_01:Sometimes it's just inner peace. That's it. If that, that's it. And it's inner peace for one thing, but you're turboil for everything else. Yeah. I mean, it really takes men being allies. Like that's the only way this could truly change, you know?
SPEAKER_02:You're so right. So it takes three years and roughly$360,000. But ultimately, the judge gives Joy full custody of her daughter. That part is done, but she still wants to try to get her money back. She writes, every day of those three years was emotionally exhausting. And of course, Joy's own relationship with God takes a major hit. We talked about this earlier. She writes about yelling, fuck you, into the sky. She writes, on and on I went as anger took over my whole body. I was sweating and crying and yelling. She collapses and then she hears it. Never doubt that I am real. So I took that, and especially if you read her, at the very end of her acknowledgments, at the back of her book, actually, she writes, like a dear reader, she has not given up on her faith with God. She still has a relationship with him, which I'm glad for because that has always brought her peace. And I'm glad that Les didn't take that away from her. Right, right. You know? Yeah. And I'm glad that she realized that that was not God. A separate thing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, completely separate.
SPEAKER_02:Ultimately, the uphill battle and cost of trying to get her money back proves to be too much. Besides, Joy realizes that she had her daughter, and that's all that mattered. So the epilogue finds Joy reconnecting with old friends, going to Hollywood parties. She writes about a conversation that she has with someone who remarks that they went to one of those churches for a while, but wasn't stupid enough to fall for it. And Joy asks her, Would you call a woman in an abusive relationship stupid? This person says, no, and Joy's like, yeah, why? And after thinking about it, the woman says, Maybe they think they deserve the abuse, or they don't understand they're being abused because they believe what the guy is telling them. They probably like see the best in people and think eventually things will get better, right? They have to believe that the pain is worth it in the long run. Like there's some great redemption on the other side. And Joy's like, that's exactly it. I actually really loved that moment. I felt like it was a really strong moment for Joy. She like holds her hand to the fire and she's like, no, tell me. Tell me why you think I'm stupid, you know? Joy writes this. She is just saying out loud what most people thought. But rather than discourage me from sharing my story, it showed me how important it was to continue to do so. The only way people change their perception of abuse survivors is if they are challenged, if they hear what it's really like from someone who experienced it, rather than have the usual cult stereotypes and cliches reinforced. She continues, the less tabloid-friendly truth, and the reason I am now so willing to tell my story is that cults can come in multiple guises, and anybody can fall for one. It just depends on your blind spots. There is one indisputable way to identify a cult from one characteristic they all share. The notion that anyone who does not agree with the group's beliefs or choices, who expresses concerns, who simply dares to ask questions is deemed unsafe. It has to be us first them. In a cult, it isn't good enough for you to say, I love you, but I disagree with you. You must affirm my choices and my beliefs. Only then can you be considered safe. In a cult, safety means agreement. So that's how she tells us. That's how you can tell. If you find yourself in a situation where you are not allowed to disagree, to challenge the power, the authority, if you are told just to fall in line and comply, you might be in a cult.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I love that she gave a specific way to really think and look. She herself admits how hard it can be to ask those questions and to face up to those challenges because, like she writes, once you're committed into something, like you want so badly to believe that it's right. Yeah. That's Joy's memoir, Dinner for Vampires. It's such a great title. And you know, the word cult is being thrown around a lot these days in relationship to the current administration. There's the QAnon cult that people subscribe to in a country that's so divided as ours, P, where there really does seem to be an us versus them mentality. Are there ways that you try to bridge that gap? Are there any solutions that you're trying to be a part of moving forward?
SPEAKER_01:My philosophy forever ago is pretty relevant now in a sense of just people just want to be seen and understood. We don't all have to agree, but the division is from both sides these days. Everyone is just so extreme and passionate, but also they are more focused on being heard than listening. And I think that that's ultimately why everything is just so divisive. Everyone's screaming to be heard and no one's actually listening.
SPEAKER_02:Her book really did help me reflect on this idea that vulnerable people get caught up in a belief system sometime and they get so caught up in it that it has to be the right way. And it's too scary to think that you're wrong after a certain point. I think that Joy's daughter kind of saved her life. Oh, 100%. Because it became not about her anymore. And if you don't have that in your life to like help, you know, break you out of something. Yeah, I think the world does need more love and compassion. And I really I love what you said. Everyone's screaming and no one's listening. I think maybe being a part of the solution is to try to listen. And it can be hard. And especially if you do come across people who like you view as like a joy, right? Who you view as somebody who's in a cult and has these beliefs where you're like, how can you be so stupid, naive, crazy, insert whatever here to believe this? Just remember that they're searching for something to be seen, to be heard. And if you can provide that for them, maybe they'll no longer need that from this other thing. I think anytime religion or Christianity is weaponized against a group of people or an individual, or anytime critical thinking is weaponized against a group of people or an individual, that's kind of cold-like to me. You know? It's like it's not always so easily identifiable. Well, thank you, Priscilla, for chatting about Joy's Dinner with Vampires with me today. I loved our conversation. Lots of stuff to unpack in this memoir. And there was a lot more that we didn't get to. Everybody check it out. Okay, I love you, P. Bye. Love you. And thank you all so much for listening. If you enjoyed our episode today, please share it with a friend, maybe a fellow One Tree Hill lover, and rate and review the show wherever you listen. That really helps new listeners find us. Next week we have our bonus episode, the movie that inspired my name, Flashdance. That one will be available for subscribers only, but you can also purchase it separately on Patreon. In December, our very first episode will be Michelle Obama's Becoming. My friend Jamie drops by the podcast, and if you've listened to any of her other episodes, you know that she brings a lot of thoughtfulness and a lot of wisdom. It's a great one to start off the last month of the year. And until then, have a great week.
