Babes in Bookland
A podcast celebrating women's memoirs, one story at a time!
Babes in Bookland
AUTHOR CHAT: Kaila Yu on Her Memoir "Fetishized"
What happens when we confront the ways we've perpetuated stereotypes?
Kaila Yu joins me to discuss her raw, unflinching journey from pin up girl and import model to memoirist.
Kaila's memoir "Fetishized" emerged from the aftermath of the Atlanta spa shootings, forcing her to reckon with her own relationship with Asian fetishization. With remarkable candor, she reveals how she initially welcomed the attention that came with being an "exotic" Asian American woman after feeling invisible during her youth. "Getting older and discovering there are people who like us, it's like a compliment at first," she explains, before describing how this validation ultimately became a trap.
Her memoir weaves in fascinating historical context, exposing how military occupation and media stereotypes created the dual images of Asian women as both submissive geishas and dangerous dragon ladies. And Kaila doesn't shy away from difficult subjects, including her experiences with substance abuse, cosmetic surgery, and sexual assault. Her reflections on changing her name from Elaine to Kyla reveal a poignant attempt to escape feelings of inadequacy—creating a character she thought the world would find more valuable than her authentic self.
What makes this discussion particularly powerful is Kaila's willingness to examine her own complicity in these systems before finding a path toward healing. Through therapy and self-reflection, she's learned to embrace her authentic identity while using her experiences to educate others and articulating how fetishization disguises objectification as appreciation.
Have you considered how stereotypes might be shaping your own perceptions? Listen to this episode for an enlightening conversation that will challenge assumptions and expand your understanding of how race, gender, and media intersect in today's world.
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This episode is produced, recorded, and edited by me.
Theme song by Devin Kennedy
Special thanks to Kaila and Lisa!
Xx, Alex
Hello, welcome to Babes in Bookland. I'm your host, alex Franca, and we have something so special today. Author Kyla Yu is here to discuss her new memoir Fetishized a reckoning with yellow fever, feminism and beauty.
Speaker 2:Hi Kyla. Hey, how are you? All of a sudden, my cat's like going crazy in the background. I'm like hopefully they can't hear this.
Speaker 1:No, we can't, but I love it. I welcome crazy pets. It's totally fine. I'm so excited to talk with you today. Thank you so much for coming on the show. I loved your memoir Fetishized and you know what I loved most, that you not only wrote about your many experiences, your personal experiences as a fetishized Asian American woman, but you provided sources, you had statistics, you had expert evidence, as the kids say. You provided receipts and it makes what you're saying undeniable, which, in a world that doesn't always believe women. I just really applaud you for doing that.
Speaker 2:I was just so shocked at some of the information that I found that it had to be included, because it was like I'm amazing I majored in Asian-American studies at UCLA when I was younger and I didn't even learn all of this Wow.
Speaker 1:I wonder how they pick and why they choose what we learn?
Speaker 2:Maybe because, yeah, some of it had to deal with the military occupation overseas and then maybe it was classified as not Asian American. Possibly.
Speaker 1:You mention military occupation in your memoir and that's one of the many cause and effects that you also lay out for your readers why Asian women and men are viewed and treated this way in American culture. It's historical evidence that is a reaction to what was done and it was really eye-opening and my hope is that it really forces your readers to reflect on this idea in our current society, how it is a domino effect of what history has set up. I think there's a lot of like denying. Right now I did an episode on the memoir Speak Okinawa which really dives in to the occupation in parts of Japan.
Speaker 2:Wait, there's some kind of synergy here, because last night I literally wrote a pitch. I didn't even cover Okinawa in my book, but I wrote a pitch because I discovered all the deep. Like so, people are like why are you bringing up this war from 100 years ago? We're still based in Okinawa. Last month there was a soldier arrested for rape of another woman, of a string of them, and they're like why can't you occupy without raping the women? It's like what?
Speaker 1:It's horrifying. It was horrifying to read that when you bring up these things about how these I guess brothels in a way were created to almost protect the women from being raped, it was like no, no, let's sell our bodies so that it's not taken from us. It's kind of like that's super fucked up.
Speaker 2:Yeah, these are supposed to be our heroes. Yeah, these aren't just regular men, these are our protectors supposedly Right.
Speaker 1:I love that you lay it all out for us. Okay, we're going to dive deeper, but before we get into the meat of the book, I would love to just talk to you a little bit about your process, because I think it's so fascinating. Did you have a ritual, like every day, when you would go to write? Was there like a candle that you lit, or were you like let me always make my peppermint tea, or anything kind of fun like that?
Speaker 2:I wish there was. I'm such a I would just make sure to write every day, but like I'm pretty disciplined as a person, but I just work from bed, Like I don't change into a different outfit or whatever. Like my bed is my. Basically I just work from bed.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, it worked for you. So you know we can't like dive too deep into that. I love that. That's amazing.
Speaker 2:But I am a travel writer, so I worked at different beds.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Some beds were really working. You were really inspired and others were like I need to get out of here, Like what's happening? Where's my mojo? So did you ever have any moments of writer's block, or were you? Was it just pretty much like flowing out of you?
Speaker 2:No, I mean, the book was signed three years ago so it was so slow. I had so much time to write, so there was no problem of oh my God, I need to like meet. It was like I will just write this slowly because the time I have.
Speaker 1:That's incredible. Do you decide like you've lived such a full life up until now? How do you kind of deduce that down to, you know, just over 300 pages, or whatever it ended up being?
Speaker 2:It's a lot of editor help. She cut out a lot of stuff that now makes very good. I'm very happy with the finished product. So you know, it's that thing they say. I think Stephen King said in his book like you got to be able to kill your darlings.
Speaker 2:Yeah it hurts when, like you're like this is a great story. And then my editor would be like what does that have to do with the Asian fetish? And I'm like I thought they would be entertained by it at least. But yeah, amy Lee's my editor. She also happens to be Asian American and she championed the book from the beginning and I wrote it very closely with her because I think sometimes I hear authors will just turn in the book but like mine's essay. So I like turned it a bunch at first, but then we just started going one by one. I'd say like, oh, I'm thinking of like making the next essay about this piece of media and this time period, and we'd discuss.
Speaker 1:That's so nice to have someone to kind of like bounce stuff back and forth. Yeah, so it's not just you and your brain being like is this good? I don't know if this is good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh my God, it was so helpful yeah.
Speaker 1:Talk to me about the moment when you and Amy, maybe together, realized this thing is done, we're ready to send this off. What did that feel like?
Speaker 2:It's well. The thing is like this isn't exciting. But like sometimes when you turn in things like okay, I had the book launch last Tuesday and like everything went amazing on book launch and I also had like my book launch event on that day, which went amazing, and the next morning I woke up and I was depressed oh, I didn't even like tell you why. And then then I started searching online and there's like this postpartum book publishing thing. That's a thing. Yeah, like a lot of people get depressed after their book publishes because you've like built it up so much. So the same thing with writing it. Like there's a little bit of like oh, okay, we're done.
Speaker 2:Like my life hasn't changed overnight.
Speaker 1:It is like creating a baby. It's your baby, I wouldn't know about that, but emotionally I imagine yes, yeah, and was fetishized, always the title Like did you know that? Going in, or oh my God.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm kind of embarrassed of my title now, but when I pitched it it was called yellow fever hustler. Okay, Okay. And then my editor started like telling people about it and people were like malaria, you know, just like not everybody understood what yellow fever referred to.
Speaker 1:Really Okay. So would you view that as a positive thing or a negative thing? People not knowing that term, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:I guess it's positive that they don't know that it stands for the Asian fetish, so it's not like so commonly used, not so good for the book, people are not getting it at all. But she actually came up with the title fetishized and then when she said it I was like, oh, that's like a slam dunk.
Speaker 1:It is a slam dunk.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's just not a commonly used word, right.
Speaker 1:As fetishized, I would say fetish is used all the time. Fetish is used all the time. Okay, so let's get into fetishized. I just really I implore everyone to read this book because it's so fantastic. You write in the section Reckoning that the murders at the Atlanta spa were the catalyst in you feeling compelled to share your story. You write we were still living amid a vicious new cycle of Asian hate, watching elderly grandmothers get smashed into sidewalks, murdered in broad daylight and I think you're referring to the murder of Guy Ying Ma in 2021.
Speaker 2:There were several. There was another girl who, yeah, unfortunately, yeah.
Speaker 1:Horrible, you continue. I also found myself reliving my earlier compliance with yellow fever tropes, feeling distasteful and guilty as I was confronted with the most extreme example of violence that can come from fetishization and hate. Asian Americans were collectively exhausted from the recent slog of AAPI hate crimes and shocked by this new one, but not surprised. We saw it coming. We saw it coming Like I'm still getting goosebumps right now. It's such a haunting line. Take me through your thought process. You're witnessing these violent, horrific crimes against Asian women and you're thinking was I some part of perpetuating the ideas? Maybe, like would you? Would you view your memoir almost as a sort of atonement?
Speaker 2:Definitely. And then, yeah, I never really reflected that much critically back on my 20s I was just like, oh, that was a crazy time, Was on a lot of drugs, you know. But like after that happened, it was like we never really made the connection between Asian fetish and violence. It's always like, oh, this annoying guy who's like being weird on a dating app. It seems like annoying but not dangerous. But violence against Asian women is very underreported and, by the way, I didn't even like connect it until like recently that I was assaulted by Asian fetishes. So I have personally experienced this violence but it didn't click because everything's so disassociated and like fragmented. Yeah, that's really interesting because when you read your book, but it didn't click because everything is so disassociated and like fragmented.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really interesting because when you read your book I feel like I understood that that was happening to you. So for me to hear that you were just kind of making those parallels, especially during your time in your band and your bandmate and the type of attention she was getting, oh, my God yeah. As a woman, woman to woman, we all feel that in a way, and it's just obviously amplified for Asian American women. Why is fetishization so dangerous, do you think?
Speaker 2:There's already objectification of women generally around the world, right, yeah, yeah. And then just adding that submissive and helplessness and like make some objects that you're easily able Like. Ok, for example, the shooter was like he had a sex addiction that he felt really ashamed of why don't you go to therapy or something you know? But he instead decided to take it out on human beings, which is like wild.
Speaker 1:It's wild. It feels like there's some sort of ownership, obviously a power dynamic that comes into play when you fetishize something. It feels like it's yours to do with as you want, and we forget, like these are human beings, these are people and these are women who don't belong to you and are free to be multifaceted, three-dimensional people that don't fall into these stereotypical roles that, through the media, we've all been kind of conditioned to believe. And I love all the examples that you give from the media and I was really struck by how vastly different the two. I would say, like you have two stereotypical portrayals of Asian women. Right, you've got the demure, docile, kind of delicate, flower, controllable woman, like you just mentioned. And then there's the tiger lady, the dominatrix, the temptress. Talk to me about how, in your opinion and because of your education journey, you think that these stereotypes came to be.
Speaker 2:Well, the submissive ones definitely from, I think, just encountering prostitutes a lot. Prostitutes are the ultimate submissive right. Prostitutes a lot. Prostitutes are the ultimate submissive right. They'll do whatever you want. But second of all, asian women are treated in East Asia still as inferior and they're supposed to be obedient. So the weird thing is that they are kind of like brought up to be submissive there but somehow when it comes over to the West it becomes hypersexual, which is not a thing in East Asia. They're just, yeah, like all of a sudden they're like these wild sex crazed, but really really like demure.
Speaker 1:It's very strange.
Speaker 2:It's very strange. The dragon lady, I think, has to do with back when the Chinese first came to America. They were seen as like scum, you know so like this invading force of like evil. So I think the dragon lady originates from that.
Speaker 1:She's like sexy and mysterious, but she's gonna like you know, kill you, steal your man, yeah, yeah, like okay, calm down everyone. I loved in your book how you talked about the false geisha narrative, how women like we talked about were subjected to these American troops basically be raped or be in on it. I actually had never watched the movie Memoirs of a Geisha and now I'm like, should I? I don't know, Do I? I know the truth now?
Speaker 2:I think it's an entertaining watch. But yeah, I think you know there's a lot of 2000s media that we're looking at and we're like it's funny because Rush Hour 2, I think, now comes with a not warning label, but it's like these things may not have age but basically something to that effect. But you know, we didn't know what we know now. But even then I would have to say that movie was pretty egregious in its like a promotion of child sex, prostitution and like selling of virginity, which is not a thing that geisha do, and it was formalized like it was this like thing that all geishas do. That's how it was presented in the book and the movie.
Speaker 1:It was like one man's fantasy, really kind of colored how a lot of people in the Western culture viewed this very traditional, beautiful art form.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like everyone here thinks they are like artistic courtesans, right?
Speaker 1:Yes, no, totally, that's kind of what I thought it was. And then, reading it in your book, I was just like, oh, oh, my God, it makes me realize the responsibility can fall on us, like you can't just take everything you consume in the media as fact. So I love how much you open our eyes in this memoir. Okay, so you write this in the section exotic. Throughout my youthful modeling career I often leaned into exoticism, relishing how it made me feel unique, not realizing I was allowing myself to be viewed in a reductive and derogatory lens. I was also genuinely proud of being asian and growing up feeling marginalized. I felt emphasizing my asianness was like a celebration of my culture. At the time I unknowingly romanticized yellow fever, not understanding I was playing into an aesthetic rooted in centuries of orientalized objectification. Talk to me about realizing that and like what that meant to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, growing up I was so invisible and just felt nerdy and like invisible to boys, like nobody asked me out. So getting older and discovering like, oh, there are some people who like us, it's like a compliment. At first You're like, oh, better than being invisible, yeah, yeah, realizing that I played into it. Later I guess my whole journey still a lot like, oh, let's be kind to the little Kyla who had no idea of things. Yeah, yeah, there was also like we were growing up in the 2000s, which was like a pretty wild time. I've also quote like Ariel Levy's feminist chauvinist pigs in the book and she called this era the Ron Jera. It was like everything was pornified, because porn was at our fingertips for the first time in history and it was like getting fast. And then Girls Gone Wild was on the TV every night, just like Yep, that's inescapable. And basically those were assault videos a lot of the time, right?
Speaker 1:Or like getting these young girls drunk and yeah it was this interesting dynamic where it was like almost a response to feminism in a way where you know and I talk about this a lot in my podcast like when is it empowerment and when is it objectification? And like who gets to decide? The young girl who's drunk and chooses to lift her shirt for what I don't know and that was a really confusing time. I'm a little bit younger than you, but I was old enough during the early aughts to like be really influenced by it and like I remember buying a pair of jeans that like went I mean girl, like two inches- above my pubic bone and being like you know, and it's like wow, we really were made to feel as young women that our sexiness is what sells.
Speaker 1:I was like you. I was the nerdy girl no boys paid attention to like. I wanted to be visible too. Think about the Abercrombie shirts that people wore. That stuff is gross. Now you look back and you're like, oh my God, we were all playing into this misogynistic objectification of ourselves Like what the hell? So tricked so tricked.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's crazy. You can't do better until you know better. Right, and as women, I think we're all finally coming together and being like okay, it's okay to be a sex worker, but also make sure you're the one in power. Let's realize who we're doing it for.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's difficult yeah it is difficult, it's really difficult. You write that you felt like you were playing a part, a character In the section Butterfly. You write no one would be interested in the real me, I thought, and so over several years, I systematically erased anything authentically me. We just talked about both feeling, you know, nerdy and invisible, and and your birth name is Elaine, and that you chose Kyla, which I loved. How you describe how you chose your name, and I think it's really empowering anytime someone decides to choose a name, right, like our parents choose our names, and maybe it fits us and maybe it doesn't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, during that whole time I would always joke like I killed Elaine and it's like a really sad cause. I treated her as like oh, she's that pathetic, like you know high school girl who couldn't you know this and that, and like wasn't strong enough to like resist getting assaulted, like it was a lot of dark stuff put on her. And then Kyla was like oh, she's empowered, she's strong and she's the opposite of everything. Elaine is To come today. I've had to do a lot of like therapy and like inner child work, specifically IFS therapy, where there's like inner parts that you like talk to. Oh, cool, yeah, that's awesome, just showing love to like this part that I very, very pointedly rejected.
Speaker 1:I think we can all do that in our own way a little bit. So you create Kyla. Would you say it was easier to be her, or did it feel like a better fit?
Speaker 2:I think I was always trying to be Kyla, but that's like not my real personality. I am just kind of introverted and nerdy, like that is my real personality and I was like trying to be something I wasn't and not owning that. You can still be introverted and nerdy and attractive, you know. Yeah, it's exhausting to try to pretend to be something you're not.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then people like meeting you in real life and you're not this huge bubbly presence that looks like you know whatever I presented in photos.
Speaker 1:Right and you were a successful model. You were a pinup girl. You were very popular in the import scene. You have a very popular import magazine cover. Did you feel yourself stepping into that, or were the lines just getting so blurry at that point and you were, so you so didn't want to be Elaine that you just kind of like buried her in the back of your closet?
Speaker 2:It was a little bit of turning it on, because there's this whole like you put on the makeup and you put on the whole thing and you literally transform into this person. I can only sustain it for hours at a time and then I'd have to go hide in my hotel room, yeah, or I'd go out and like do cocaine, or like that helps a lot.
Speaker 1:We're very open about your experience with drugs. You really sense your desire to feel beautiful and to fit into this particular world, while at the same time you're being objectified. And while I do think that drug usage and partying are just kind of a part of that world inherently, I think retrospectively it does feel like a coping mechanism. I think it's so beautiful that you've been able to come out on the other side. It seems like therapy was a big proponent in that and we'll get to. I wanted to ask you what rock bottom was for you, that turning point. But we'll get there, we'll get there.
Speaker 1:I loved learning about your idol in the pinup world, maybe just your idol in general. It seemed like Sunghee Lee and she was known for her butterfly tattoo and I think this idea of metamorphosis, this idea of turning into the butterfly, I think it's something that so many young women can relate to, because we are all taught that being a woman means being perfect in a lot of ways that really are unattainable, and it kind of doesn't even matter which direction you're going in, right, like you want to be the trad wife. Whatever you go this way, you want to be right, especially Asian American girls. There's a whole different perfection standard and and it really does feel like boys are just allowed to be who they are and we have to change to be something better. Almost, how have you been able to connect with other women in your life? Have they gone through this same thing that you've been so open and honest about?
Speaker 2:On different layers. I mean, I just took such an extreme path, I think, than the average person. But definitely there's, like other import models that I'm still friends with who are. It's funny, a lot of import models disappear from the web completely. And then I'm like oh, is it because they're like embarrassed of what? Or like there was actually a girl that follows me who was a model and I had I post a series of videos like what happened to so and so and to all all the import models. And then some of the models are like oh, can you take that down? I don't want to attract more attention to myself because they're like moms or whatever, but I'm like but there's nothing to be nothing to be ashamed of.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's hard. You know you clearly have done a lot of work to be in such a good place where, like this reckoning for you is something that is empowering for you at this point. But like you have to get there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's not fair for me to choose someone's. Get there, I guess. Yeah, that makes sense yeah.
Speaker 1:I think we all have things in our teenage years and 20s, maybe even in our 30s, where we're like, oh my God, why did I do that? But, like you said earlier, it's about having compassion for our younger selves. We're all human and like we're just doing the best we can have you watched K-pop Demon Hunters Okay, not yet, but I need to because it's like everywhere and I feel like it's totally my vibe, because I love K-pop and I love demon hunting, I love.
Speaker 2:Buffy, I resisted watching. I'm not into cartoons at all, actually.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:I'm not a big anime person and then finally I knew I was going to watch it eventually because it's such a you know everyone's talking about it.
Speaker 2:You have to be in on the conversation and the whole theme of it is really about this girl, one of the K-pop girls, has a secret that she's hiding from everyone, she's so ashamed of and she's like hid it all her life and then finally she embraces it and shares it to the world and at first people are like judging her for it, but like then she comes into her own and then there's a big song about not having secrets or something. Okay, I'll have to check it out, yeah. Yeah, you're gonna get judged no matter what, even if you're not sharing your secrets. So might as well. I'm in recovery and there's a saying called you're're not sharing your secrets, so might as well. I'm in recovery and there's a saying called you're as sick as your secrets. And it was the same for me. Like I kept secrets for decades and they, like I had to take drugs to, like you know, regulate, and then it was still eating me inside out like acid, you know. So, yeah, better to let it out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you were very open in your memoir. I really appreciated how forthcoming you were about the various surgeries that you had. Would you like to talk a little bit about that? I mean, you're a very beautiful woman. I imagine you've always been a beautiful woman, but you felt pressure like we've already talked about to look a certain way. That's what beauty was.
Speaker 2:That's what's a sight I mean, it's still happening with everybody now, right, yeah, I feel like it really bothers me when celebrities are not honest about their surgeries because it's like, oh, then like girls are feeling bad about themselves because they can't attain this thing. That like is not natural, right, yeah, but yeah, I definitely I can't say that's completely healed, like I look at Lindsay Lohan and I was like, oh, I guess we don't have to age. You know she looks better than she's ever looked in her entire life, but we know it's surgery, right. And then it's like, oh, it's exhausting. We always have to keep like, keep up. But yeah, I definitely felt pressure or like a surgery, really felt like a rebirth.
Speaker 2:You know, like when I got my boob job, it felt like I was reborn, because I was always hyper feminine, but it just like to me that associated with like being more curvy too, because that's what I saw in the media.
Speaker 1:Right, right. Have you ever heard the phrase you're not ugly, you're just poor? Yeah, it is almost what it feels like and I'm with you. I wish that people would be really forthcoming. I've talked about on the show. I get Botox. We all feel this pressure. Why are we all pretending that this is a natural thing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Come on y'all. We all know it's not we all know, yeah, we all know, the jig is up Because Lindsay Lohan was like, oh, just like, great exercise and whatever.
Speaker 1:No, and I love Lindsay Lohan I really do but I feel like she's doing a disservice to all of us by not owning up to the ways that they are actually changing their bodies, because it's a false narrative. But I get it, because as women, it feels like we're damned if we don't and we're damned if we do. We're supposed to love our bodies as they are, yet we're also supposed to not age.
Speaker 1:We're supposed to look perfect. It's exhausting. I'm with you. I'm with you. Let's quit pretending it's natural, it's fine. And you really lay out the pressures that Asian women feel physically to change your comments about Asian women's eyes. How to people? They were expressionless, unemotional, yet also conniving, kind of like okay, people pick lane. And how many women underwent this eye? So it's an eyelid forming surgery? Can you talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 2:So some women have a. They don't have the line, they don't have an eyelid, so sometimes they'll get the surgery to make the eyelid. I had the eyelid, but then you can get the it made higher to kind of lift your eyes brighter, to like make them bigger. Really crazy Cause it's so invented. There's all these surgeries in Asia you've never heard of. There's one where they make an extra under eye poofy thing because it makes you look younger. I forgot what it's called the under eye puffiness.
Speaker 1:I'm trying to get rid of mine. What's happening? It's like this little thing. It's like the under eyelid, like right here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's puffy a little bit to look cute and young, yeah, and then all these people using fillers here and it looks horrible. I was like why are you putting these weird fillers in your face, like these things people are doing are so random.
Speaker 1:It's really random and the thing is like the beauty look is so fad based. I know you can get fillers dissolved, but like the buckle fat removal I'm like, oh yeah, put that back in.
Speaker 2:I know I was just talking to a very young girl the other day who, like, was in her twenties and she had that done and she was, like I'm happy with it right now but, yes, one day I'm going to have to put more stuff in because it's not going to look so attractive at 40 or something.
Speaker 1:Right when our bodies naturally start, we start losing volume in our face, and I also wonder where are people getting this money from? Yeah, were you putting your surgeries on credit cards, or were you able to kind of pay them off quickly?
Speaker 2:Well, I was working a lot as okay, so when I got my boob job I used when you're an Asian kid, you get all these red envelopes for all the holidays. So my mom would put them all in a bank account and I basically threatened to put it on a credit card or she give me that money. And then she chose just to be really involved in it because I was going to do it no matter what. And she was like let me research the doctor, let me and thank God, Right yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then when I did the eyelid surgery, I was I was modeling by that time, so I was making like a lot of money for that age.
Speaker 1:Yeah, did it ever cross your mind though? Like what if it goes wrong? Well, you're touching your beautiful face. No, no.
Speaker 2:Right. I mean there's kind of like ignorance is bliss sometimes I should have been more fearful, but like I was very reckless really you know, with a lot of things you can see, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you were just kind of going yeah, I wasn't like deeply critically thinking about anything.
Speaker 2:That time is now.
Speaker 1:That time is now.
Speaker 2:And you're like I made it out.
Speaker 1:It's fine, now I can think about it. To wrap up this section on beauty and beauty standards, I want to read another quote from your memoir. You write this in your section of titled Geisha. You write memoirs of a.
Speaker 1:Geisha confirmed all my misguided beliefs about female rivalries, feminine worth or lack thereof, and outer appearances. To me it proved we needed to be seductive to captivate men. It was the only way, I thought, to make sure I wouldn't dissolve into a ghost. If I couldn't pleasure men, I was worthless. I had so many quotes that I tabbed while reading your memoir and these are just like the four or five that I really that I pulled. You capture that feeling of how difficult it is to be a woman in so many different ways and then, like I said, you also educate us about the Asian American female experience and how that's even more amplified because it's paired with this fetishization and we just all need to recognize it and realize it so that, hopefully, collectively, we can all be better for each other. We got to figure out a way to come together, and I think the first step towards that is listening to each other and believing one another's perspectives and experiences, especially as women.
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny I just did it last night Like there's the Sydney Sweeney controversy with the jeans. Yeah, talk to me about that, kyla. How do you feel? Well, you know, I think she was just, I don't think she was thinking that critically about it, but whoever made the ad was, and like they knew what was going on. And then the clap back video of Cat's Eye with the Gap video. Oh, have you seen that? No, no, yeah, that's been going viral on TikTok. So another video came out by a Latina director and you know how Gap used to do these dance videos. Oh, yeah, to do these dance videos. Oh, yeah, they brought that back with Cat's Eye, who's like gone viral for being a K-pop girl band on Netflix, ok, and so it's all super multicultural. But they did it to Milkshake, which is like a throwback. But also people found it to kind of be a dig at Sydney Sweeney, because it's like my Milkshake and that's what she's known for her large breasts.
Speaker 2:And then they're saying like my milkshake brings all the boys to your yard and they're like it's better than yours. So I kind of reported on that. And then I was like wait, I don't know if I want to pit women against each other, so I took it down. But yeah, the immediate thing that happens, we like just naturally pit women against each other.
Speaker 1:We really really do. You know, sydney Sweeney is young, so young, right, she's trying to make hers while she can. We all know that this business, especially like fame, is fleeting. Your 15 minutes can be up and you need to make your bank. And I think you probably sort of went through a similar experience where, like you didn't realize the larger game at play when you were just like, yeah, she's like I like American Eagle.
Speaker 2:Let me just be the American Eagle. I don't think anyone's. Yeah, going to the creative and being like I think you know, like yeah, are you being racist?
Speaker 1:Like also, I don't know. You're right. I think that's really cool that you had this response and you're like this is funny, but I don't know if I want to be a part of this conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's not necessary.
Speaker 1:Bringing the focus back to uplifting one another. Okay, speaking of uplifting, talk to me a little bit about how your family played into your sense of self-worth, or lack thereof. You talked about your dad in the great Little Mermaid section, which, the Little Mermaid, was my favorite.
Speaker 2:Disney movie growing up Girl.
Speaker 1:I ran through my room singing those songs all the time. I was Ariel in the bathtub, so into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean my family. I had a good life. You know, like my parents came here and sacrificed all their dreams to give us a better life and they provided for us, but like we're growing up here and watching the Brady Bunch and seeing all those lovey dovey things and that's just not how East Asians are, and I already was insecure, so I think that just amplified my insecurity. I just read Gwyneth Paltrow's biography not memoir, because she didn't write it and I was like starting to dislike her Because it was like basically her dad just like worshipped her since she was a kid and told her she was beautiful and the greatest thing in the world and so, as a result, she floated through, like her career path to becoming a famous actress was pretty just gliding easy it was easy and then, like all the most amazing men in the world, fall in love with her.
Speaker 2:you know like easily there's no like real strife. Since then, her dad's died and she's gone through things.
Speaker 1:I do think that there's a correlation between the attention and the love that young girls get from their fathers and confidence and self-worth. Do you feel like that correlation played out for you? It's like you understand this is why your father is that way, but also as a young person, especially seeing examples of other people getting what you want just that, the love, the validation that he was incapable of giving for reasons that we don't need to go into, because obviously they've lived their lives a certain way and it's a reaction to the way they agree, like we all know, this generational trauma stuff. I mean, I feel like you included this in your memoir for a reason, because you could kind of trace it back.
Speaker 2:And my father simply wasn't taught to do this, so he didn't even know this was a thing you know Right, and you don't have the words as an 11-year-old.
Speaker 1:Yeah Please, dad.
Speaker 2:Just say you love me and I'll be good. I had no realization of this when I was growing up, that I was missing this from him. It wasn't like so tangible, it was like I wanted his attention but I didn't know it was negatively affecting me. I just knew I wanted his attention and then I was sad when I didn't get it and then you just be like, oh yes, he's busy, or you know, looking back I can see where that year and then you talked about how your mom was very supportive of your surgery and helped you research it.
Speaker 1:How did she demonstrate to you the way that women should be, or good Asian-American woman should be?
Speaker 2:It's interesting because I think for that generation of immigrants it was so much about get a job with a 401k lawyer, doctor. Anything beneath that is like worthless. So, like me, pursuing these creative careers were just like a lot of very disappointing for my parents Because the whole thing is they want to like go back to their group, chat with their friends and be like my daughter got into Harvard you know, and they can like really brag about me back then, yeah.
Speaker 1:And was that tangible for you? Their disappointment, I guess? Oh yeah totally.
Speaker 2:I mean Asian parents will tell you. So the whole thing is like I didn't get any validation, but I got a lot of criticism. This is not on my mom. This is the way Asian parents are. They just like try to make you better by criticizing you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but when did you realize that, kyla? Because I feel like a young person wouldn't necessarily be like these aren't my parents, this is their culture. Yeah, and how did you? How have you like, rectified that in your life? I?
Speaker 2:think it was maybe like later in my 20s that I realized or thought about it that much to consider it's just culture. And now my parents have gotten more. I think as they age they just get more easygoing too.
Speaker 1:That's good.
Speaker 2:And I always say I broke my parents down because my poor parents like with this book, my poor parents have they read it. I don't think they read English books. They can read English but I don't think they like read English books. They've had it. I know they haven't read it because if they read it there would be some calls. You know There'd be some calls. Yeah, but I did warn them there's like drugs and assault and like sexual topics. So they know the gist of it.
Speaker 1:Was there any part of you because some of these memoirs that I read I'm like whoa, does that person know that? They're like dropping this information? Was there any part of you that felt like, okay, let me hold back on this a little bit to like protect this person? Or were you just ready to be like no, I need to lay out my entire truth because that's how I can get my message across the best.
Speaker 2:No, absolutely Many names are changed in there. All the ex-boyfriends have different names and I've like changed some identifying details so it's not like immediately obvious. So the people who are the same are my parents and like the bandmates who have read their chapters and like were okay with everything.
Speaker 1:Gave the sign off. Yeah, how do you feel that you have finally found your self-worth and your value?
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm still finding myself. I think it's like truly like a lifetime process. But like me, like when people say they're nostalgic about their 20s, I'm like I never want to go back there.
Speaker 1:Like.
Speaker 2:I just think of how I felt like so uncertain.
Speaker 2:But I think like when you get older, you just stop caring, you stop caring, and each like decade you just care less and less. I think there's a natural progression of that. And then also just writing the book was like an unexpected healing, that I didn't go into it with that purpose. But that itself, just like putting it out and just like being like here it is, and then processing it with, like, my editor who was very sympathetic yeah, that was a big part of the healing process.
Speaker 1:Was it difficult to write about your sexual assaults? And then also I just saw on Instagram you shared you are the audio narrator. Is it hard for you to? You know, it's like one thing to share the story and the experience and then for you to have to like verbalize it again. How was that?
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting. I'm so still fractured because I think like that assault is the moment that Elaine and Kyla really became created, and like I have a disassociation with that. Still, there's still like for me, work in therapy is still like connecting it to it, cause I've cried like a handful of times over it, but this is like probably an avalanche of tears worth you know. Yeah, yeah, I'm still working on my disassociation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's interesting. As we grow older, I feel like for me, what I realized was who I thought was important and like what they thought about me has just gotten narrower and narrower. So that's why, like, I feel like I give less bucks the older I get, because I'm like, oh, I've got my core group and as long as they're okay with who I am and I'm okay with who I am around them. But it you know it can be. It can be really difficult. It is a journey and I really enjoyed reading your journey. I mean you talk about a lot of difficult things, difficult moments in your life, but you also do have some really entertaining sections.
Speaker 2:And I did have so much fun at times, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it wasn't all this bad experience, or else you wouldn't have kept doing it.
Speaker 2:You wouldn't have kept pursuing it.
Speaker 1:Of course you know. All right, I have to bring this up the comments that you talked about on your fan site and you did mention that your manager's assistant read them. But, like, were you aware of them at the time? I mean some of these. I have to say them so that people understand just how vile and scary people were. You write multiple daily comments described raping me, beating me and strangling me, slapping me, making me bleed, kicking me, stomping on me and other acts of aggression. If the comments weren't about rape, they were about inflicting pain in a variety of ways. A common topic was having anal sex with me and wanting to fuck me until I cried or split in half.
Speaker 2:What the absolute fuck Split in half.
Speaker 1:I don't know what experiences a man had to come out to hate women that much you know Like what happened to you Makes me think of the shooter at Santa Barbara, the University of Santa Barbara, when he was just like they didn't want to date me, so I'm killing them. Where does it say that we have to date you?
Speaker 2:or like you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the entitlement earlier about this idea of ownership with objectification, and the quote that I read from your memoir these comments that you got really shows just how dangerous it is. Were you aware of these at the time?
Speaker 2:No, I get messages too, but not to the level I think people won't even DM these to you. But yeah, some of those when I heard those, when I was writing the book and got it from my manager, really were some of the first times I was hearing some of the things. So it's like this is terrible. It is terrible Because I have a thing like I don't go online and I don't read Reddit. I don't read. You know, I'll see comments that come through on my Instagram here and there, but I don't read them all because some of them are like atrocious.
Speaker 1:Especially, hiding behind the anonymity of the internet, it just like unleashes this really gross part of humanity.
Speaker 2:It really is just exposing the dark underbelly of the internet. I think there should be a law that if you're going to post stuff online you have to sign your name to it and have your profile photo. That would stop so much.
Speaker 1:You know, I would really hope so, but there are a lot of people these days saying some truly heinous things, proud and publicly, so I don't know. Yeah, okay, so you didn't really have to cope with so much of this like in real time. I think it's smart that you just have chosen to stay out of the comment section. I think it's better for all of our mental health. Even if we can understand in our heads that, like these people are either trolls or unhappy people themselves, like it still hurts Words can really hurt.
Speaker 2:Especially if they touch on something you're already a little bit insecure about and then it's like, yeah, a big thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and these are examples I'm giving of people saying things on the internet. But you also write about experiences that you had, and some of your bandmates had, where men made you feel extremely uncomfortable and these interactions, these experiences left their mark. Quite a bit of uncomfortable touching happening.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, Every all like yeah, when you're like taking a photo, they'll like try to slip their hands. That's not the majority of guys, but there's definitely guys who do that, yeah.
Speaker 1:That's not cool, not cool.
Speaker 2:Gross, even like walking through a club and like somebody mysteriously grabbed you. Like who gets that's such a weird thing to do. Like what are you getting from this?
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't know, girl, I can't even begin to figure out how sad is your life that this is titillating totally yeah, get a hobby. Okay. So we've. We've worked up to this point. You've talked about your journey with alcoholism and drug abuse. What was rock bottom for you?
Speaker 2:the thing about my drug and alcohol use is I never thought I had a problem because I'm a periodic so I can stop. Like I had that MTV Chi performance and I think I stopped for an entire month, like completely cold turkey, and got ready for the performance, but my girlfriend was ready in the dressing room with Coke on my way out. That was like the first thing I did and then it was bad Coke for some reason, or sometimes it affects you bad, right, okay, and I like got anxiety and everybody went out to celebrate that night and I went home to sleep and it was like this big night, you know. But after that I just burned everything to the ground. I stopped showing up to shows. People would book me plane tickets, I would just not go. I went into the studio to try to record the next album but I always showed up too wasted to like complete anything. So, yeah, I just like completely ended the solo music career. So I think that was rock bottom for me.
Speaker 1:You talk about that. You hold yourself accountable in your memoir, which I really appreciated too Like you don't skirt around some of these things, and I think that could be really difficult to do. Was there anything that you did leave out, that you were like that's too much, I can't admit to that yet? Or were you just like no, no, I let it all hang out. I all the skeletons.
Speaker 2:I'm sure there's something. Maybe it didn't fit the Asian.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:I can't think of anything off that. I mean, there's no more big secrets, that's for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I did love that you mentioned the book that helped you quit smoking and you were like I don't know how it worked. It was black magic, but it worked.
Speaker 2:It was crazy because my editor had me add something in there because she thought it was so unbelievable. But that book has worked for many people. That's why it's a famous book. I don't understand it.
Speaker 2:It's called the Easy Way to Quit Smoking by Alan Carr and you're allowed to smoke while you're reading the book, but when you finish you're just like done. And you were. Yeah, I had an ex who was listening to it on audiobook and I was like I don't know if that works the same. I think you have to read this one.
Speaker 1:That's funny. Okay, I do have a big question for you before we wrap everything up.
Speaker 2:How do you stay hopeful and optimistic about positive change in today's world. Well, I have a spiritual practice. I think that helps a lot and, like I believe in God and a higher power and I just believe whoever that is because I'm not, like, religious. I think that whoever created this beautiful, amazing world with all these animals I adorn and I look at my little kitty and she's so perfect, like this person, this thing wants the best for us and we keep getting in the way somehow. But I think that's like the ultimate is like some kind of greater good.
Speaker 1:I love that. How can we get out of our own way? Yeah, kyla, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. How can everyone find you? Obviously, they can go down to their nearest bookstore and pick up this incredible memoir off the shelf. It's out Yay.
Speaker 2:Yay, yeah, support your independent local bookstore. And then, for me, I'm just Kyla Yu and you could find me there on all social media under my name Perfect and we will include all of those links in the show notes.
Speaker 1:Kyla, what is the biggest takeaway that you hope to leave all your readers with?
Speaker 2:We already know objectification's not harmless, but same with fetishization, because that's like the kind of gaslighting thing that men will do. They'll be like we, like you. Why are you mad? Why are you so mad? I'm just like putting down on paper that it often leads to violence. It's not harmless.
Speaker 1:Yep. Thank you so much, Kyla, for coming on Babes in Bookland today. I really enjoyed reading your memoir and I really enjoyed chatting with you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for such a fun and intelligent conversation. So glad to connect.
Speaker 1:I completely agree. Thank you, have a great day. Bye, Bye. I hope you enjoyed listening to our very first author chat on Babes in Bookland. I've got a few more up my sleeve, so stay tuned. Those are coming your way soon. If you'd like to further support the show, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts to get extended episodes, to get extended versions of most of our episodes and for some really fun bonus episodes where we do deep dives into some of my favorite movies with strong female leads. You can also support the show on Patreon. You can buy episodes individually there and you can check out our cute merchandise at Tee Public. For more information, visit babesinbooklandcom. See you soon.
