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Babes in Bookland
A podcast celebrating women's memoirs, one story at a time!
Babes in Bookland
Childfree by Choice // Maria Coffey's "Instead"
What happens when you choose a life without children in a world that expects motherhood?
Maria Coffey's memoir "Instead: Navigating Adventures of a Childfree Life" explores this question through her extraordinary journey from near-death experiences to global adventures. My friend, Jaime, and I discuss her inspiring conviction to live her life on her own terms.
Through vivid storytelling, we travel alongside Maria from her 1950s Catholic upbringing to her daring escape from traditional expectations. Her near-drowning experience at 21 became a pivotal moment, giving her clarity about life's fragility and the courage to chase her dreams despite her mother's disapproval. "I had to make my own life," Maria declares, words that become her north star as she builds an adventurous existence with her husband.
What makes this memoir extraordinary isn't just Maria's global kayaking expeditions or her successful travel business, but how she finds meaningful connections with children despite her choice not to have her own. Her relationships with Bok in Vietnam and Agnes in Kenya reveal that motherhood comes in many forms and our opportunities to have a positive effect on another are endless.
"Instead" challenges us to consider what makes a fulfilling life and reminds us that our choices don't require justification, even when they break tradition. Have you ever felt pressured to follow someone else's dream for your life? Maria's story might just give you the courage to follow your own.
Subscribe now to hear more thought-provoking discussions about books that explore women's diverse experiences and the courage to live authentically.
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Buy “Instead” By Maria Coffey
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Transcripts are available through Apple’s podcast app—they may not be perfect, but relying on them allows me to dedicate more time to the show! If you’re interested in being a transcript angel, let me know.
This episode is produced, recorded, and its content edited by me.
Technical editing by Brianna Picone
Theme song by Devin Kennedy
Special thanks to my dear friend, Jaime. Xx, Alex
Hi, welcome to Babes in Bookland. I'm your host, alex Franca, and today my friend Jamie is back to discuss, instead, navigating, the Adventures of a Child-Free Life by Maria Coffey. But first a review from Pips Lemon on Amazon. I stumbled on this podcast while looking up information on a specific book they happen to be discussing. I'm glad I did. This is a strong, gently moderated female book club inspired book review and discussion of women's stories and ideas. The books matter, the discussions matter, the questions, the personal relation of experiences, the uplift of women. This podcast couldn't be more timely or more poignant. Thank you, thank you, pips. That means everything to me. Truly, let's get to today's episode. Hi, jamie, hey Alex, thank you so much for coming back on the show. I'm excited to talk about this one with you today. I know you didn't get a chance to read the book, which is great, because not all my listeners read the books before they listen to the podcast episodes and I don't want that to hold anybody back.
Speaker 2:And even people like me without children are busy.
Speaker 1:Now I don't know how true that is, I'm just kidding. I will say it was really funny. I had family over recently and one of my aunts is also child free but she was talking to me about how her cat wakes her up every morning at 5 am and I was like that's pretty bad, because my son sleeps well past that now. But I was like you can be child-free and you still get woken up by the responsibilities that you choose. There you go. I really really enjoyed this well-written and vulnerable memoir.
Speaker 1:Maria's life decisions are so different than mine Her love, her need for travel I really do think it was like an intrinsic need in her life, her decision not to have children and it was so lovely to read her perspective and I think that's what life is all about Supporting and celebrating and having compassion for people who live their lives the way that they want to, even when they make different decisions than you. It's okay to accept that people. Good for her, not for me. Remember that phrase. I was kind of going around for a while. I really love that phrase. Good for her, not for me.
Speaker 2:I like that. I don't remember that, but yeah, I think it gets at the idea that somebody's choices don't mean that they're attacking yours that are different.
Speaker 1:Yes, and you know, a lot of her story resonated with me, even though we took different life paths, and we can still find ways to connect with each other even when we make different life choices. Maybe I'll say it like other people's choices are not about you.
Speaker 2:I love that too. Other people's choices are not about me right.
Speaker 1:Amen, speaking the truth. Okay, so let's get into it Instead. Was published in 2023, and this is her dedication for Agnes and Hannah and Bach, wherever you are, and we will learn more about who Agnes, Hannah and Bach are as we get to it. Okay, james, let's start with the quick topics. So, the term child free what are your thoughts on it? Maria kind of brings it up and she's like this is a weird term for me. I don't know how I feel about it. It feels kind of weird. I had never thought of it too much, but it is strange. We label women as child free when they choose not to have children, when technically, we're all child free to start and we just become what child full Like it's really strange.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's not a great term for particularly women who don't have children, because one there's a number of reasons why women don't to your point. Maybe they haven't yet and they will at some point. Maybe they wanted to and couldn't. Maybe they were a parent and God forbid lost a child Then what you know. Or maybe you are a woman who chose not to have children, and there's just so many varying degrees.
Speaker 2:Sometimes I jokingly call myself the momist of the non-moms because I feel like I have this very nurturing side to me. But yeah, non-moms doesn't really fit. So I will say I did not hear the phrase child-free until a couple of years ago. There's a animal rescue person who is big on social media who's childless by choice would be another way to phrase that and she was reading a book about being child free and that's where it stuck. But yeah, I think the clearest distinction that I see between maybe what was used historically childless is child free is pointing out that it's the choice versus someone who's childless. It might not be their choice, but you know, generally I don't refer to myself as that too often. I'll just say, yeah, childless by choice, or say that I'm, you know, I'm not a parent of humans, but animal parent. Now, what else?
Speaker 1:Well, and it's really interesting to me because nobody's child free let's be real, there are children around your life. Unless you're living by yourself under a rock, you're gonna by yourself under a rock, you're going to interact with children or you're going to probably be mothering someone in some way. In Michelle Boutteau's memoir she writes you don't have to have children to be a mother, and as women, we just already take on so much of that responsibility and that burden. That is just interesting to me too, the term child-free.
Speaker 2:Again, I hadn't thought about it too much, but my husband and I embrace the term, dink double income no kids.
Speaker 1:So us and our other friends who don't have children, we call ourselves the dinks, and that's hilarious. I love it. Okay, next quick topic. At one point, when Maria is 19, she talks about trying drugs for the first time. She tries LSD. The street name in the memoir was windowpane, which was a new one for me. Also, I'm not really. I've never done LSD, so maybe that's why I'm not up on the terms. Also, maria was 19 in the 80s or the 70s Probably didn't have fentanyl in it. No, probably did not. She talks about how everything was so heightened and so beautiful at the beginning of her trip, but then she grew extremely paranoid and I'm sure you can guess what this reminded me of, james, as I'm reading it and knowing I'm discussing this with you. Was that your first time smoking pot? Did we take edibles together? What was it? My first experience with cannabis was probably age 19.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it was with you and your now husband when you were just dating and yes, Still in college Visiting you in California and I was curious about it, having taken a college course that was about deviance, actually social deviance, and the professor was like, yeah, it just heightens your experience. It makes he was proclaiming the only reason cannabis isn't legal in this country is because it's basically an attack on Mexican Americans. And you know, there's no reason that alcohol should be legal when cannabis isn't yada, yada, yada. So he says you know, it makes food taste better, makes jokes funnier.
Speaker 2:I didn't realize that it runs the gamut of based on what strain? Based on yourself as an individual. And yeah, I took it. I think we smoked it and I didn't think it was working. And then it did work and you and boyfriend now husband were just laughing on the couch about whatever show we were watching and I was freaking out because I thought I was going to swallow my tongue and I think I said do I need to go to the hospital? And he said no. And I said how long is this going to last? And he said 30 minutes and I probably stared at a clock for the full 30 minutes and then was like it still hasn't worn off and ultimately just went to bed. But yeah, that scared me straight for many more years.
Speaker 1:I will never forget your face looking over you. You were sitting on that chair and you just kept sticking your tongue out of your mouth because you were so afraid that if your tongue was in your mouth you would swallow it. And of course I didn't have all of my facilities working at full capacity because I was also high and I kind of didn't know what to do. I knew that you were having a serious reaction to it, but it was so goofy, just you sticking your tongue out of your mouth. And now you do partake in the cannabis. You do like gummies, right? I remember we talked about this during our educated episode and you were like I know what tinctures are and I was like, oh, I don't. Because I realized I don't like the feeling of being out of control.
Speaker 2:I will just say this At this stage in my life I only partake in legal drugs.
Speaker 1:There we go. I love that for you. Okay, last quick topic. Maria brings home her college boyfriend, who is Gasp, a Jewish man, and her very Catholic parents don't exactly approve. She writes my father informed him that Jews killed Christ. They tell her his parents will never let their son marry a Gentile. Maria does eventually break up with him, partly because of her parents' influence, but also after reading Betty Friedan and Simone de Beauvoir, she realized that he had controlling tendencies and she was being compliant. He was not a good guy too, but have you ever had your parents warn you about a boyfriend?
Speaker 2:The only one that I think I was maybe warned about in real time was my first high school boyfriend.
Speaker 2:My dad made it pretty known that he was not a fan, but at the same point he didn't forbid me from going out with him. And I don't remember any specifics other than like, oh, you could do better, or whatnot. But then over the years it was after relationships ended that my dad would be like, oh yeah, glad that didn't stay, and I'm like, come on, couldn't you have said something in the moment? But you know, based on that first experience, he actually said to me he's like I think my vocalizing distaste of that first boyfriend made you dig your heels in more. So, yeah, didn't want to do that and I'm like, okay, fair enough. But I will say now that I am married, I did not that it was going to make or break it, but I wanted to know what my parents actually thought. And my dad expressed that he really was pleased that I found this person to be my life partner and, yeah, that gave me a lot of comfort.
Speaker 1:That's good. Yeah, I remember that relationship that you were talking about and it's a really slippery slope as a parent because you do want to give guidance and give advice and I mean it's a slippery slope even friend to friend, right no-transcript. If the situation gets really bad, like assault and abuse are happening, then I think you have a stronger reason for a course of action. But if someone just is kind of emotionally or mentally abusive or just has overall around shitty behavior, I remember meeting one of your boyfriends and talking to my husband at the time and being like I don't think that that guy's the best guy for her, but she seems really into him. And I don't know if you guys had furthered your relationship. If you would call me and said you were engaged, maybe we would have had a conversation. Luckily it didn't come to that because you saw him for who he was and right.
Speaker 2:And I think for people who haven't had that experience like, what they don't realize is that people don't come out the gate being assholes, right, they start off with their best foot forward and you know, if you happen to fall for them, then you put up with a lot right, and you make excuses until you see the light. Or in that case I got lucky and he dumped me. Who would have thought it? But I remember when that happened I wrote down. You know, I was devastated at first, but then when I kind of came to, I was like I was treated poorly for the majority of that relationship and I wrote everything down so I wouldn't forget. So if you were to, you know, come back and try and get back together with me, I'd be like, no, this is when I'm in my right mind, this is what I know to be true.
Speaker 1:That is such a smart thing to do. Yeah, good for you. I'm glad that you found your husband. He's a good one. So, all right, let's dive deeper into Maria's memoir. So the memoir opens at this really scary moment in her life. She and her husband, daig, who own a guided travel business, are living in Barcelona when the world shuts down due to COVID. They are from Canada. Maria is originally from Britain, so if sometimes I say mum during a quote, that's why, and after an attempt to get home, they decide to stay where they are. They're outdoorsy, they're adventurous.
Speaker 1:One morning, dave goes for a bike ride, leaving his cell behind, which wasn't something that he made a habit of. It was supposed to be just this really quick, easy thing. Instead he falls horrifically, shattering his leg in a more remote part of this mountain trail way up the hill, and the world is shut down, so there's not a lot of people around him to find him and he has to limp, slash, drag himself, slash, sort of walk his bike to a road. Luckily he flags down a car, but it's really really bad and he loses a lot of blood and it does get dicey there for a moment. And this event is extremely triggering for Maria, because she actually lost the first love of her life, a mountaineer, when he failed to return home from Mount Everest. And even though this is decades ago, at this point in her life she finds herself spiraling. She writes what if they can't fix him, how would I cope? For over 30 years he'd been my rock, the center of everything. I lay back, breathe deeply, tried to calm myself. It didn't work. Long ago I'd been sent out to sea by a riptide and this felt the same, and she means literally. By the way, she almost drowned when she was 20, which we'll get to.
Speaker 1:She continues everything had changed in an instant. Everything was beyond my control. I was afraid and profoundly lonely. Who to turn to in such a moment? In the middle of the night, suddenly, I longed to reach out to someone who was a part of Daig and me a child grown up. Now. The thought was so unexpected, so visceral, it propelled me from the bed. Of course, there was no child. I decided that long ago. Okay, so you mentioned earlier you are a dink dual income, no children, no kids. Can you walk me through that decision-making process?
Speaker 2:Why are you a dink, jamie? It wasn't something that I decided and stuck to my whole life by any means, and you know I'm in my mid thirties now. I got married when I was 30, but you know, had I ended up getting married in my early twenties, I very well might've become a parent, and if I married a different person, I might've very well become a parent. I think it was so circumstantial in some ways, but also just like a really conscious decision that I made with my now husband and the way that came about. Really, I think I got to the point where I reflected enough to realize that the reason why most people end up having kids it's kind of, in my mind, twofold Either they don't have the knowledge or resources to prevent childbirth when they're engaging in intercourse right. They don't have the knowledge or resources to prevent childbirth when they're engaging in intercourse right. So you end up pregnant on accident. Or they pursue becoming a parent because they have been socialized to believe that that's the only right choice, right. That that's what everyone has done. And you know birth control was not around until like the 80s, so really, I mean it's only in pretty recent human history that we've been able to make decisions about whether or not we want to reproduce. So, yeah, just through my own education and real world knowledge gaining throughout my 20s, I would say I got to the point where I realized, oh, there is an alternative option.
Speaker 2:And I will also say I was never somebody who loved spending time around children. I didn't have a lot of young children around me. I didn't babysit much, loved spending time around children. I didn't have a lot of young children around me. I didn't babysit much. Yeah, so when I, when I was getting to you know serious dating age in my later twenties and I was kind of of the camp that I could go either way, you know. And when I met my now husband, he was also basically indifferent and you know, the decision was two people who are indifferent should not make a human if they can avoid it, because's not fair to that person. That being that human, if you reproduce, does not exist unless you make them exist. So we're not talking about children who exist, who are waiting for homes right, that's adoption and we're talking about beings that don't exist, that don't have to exist unless you create them.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think, recognizing that if one of us had felt very strongly about it because of our love for each other. I think we would have persuaded the other. But yeah, recognizing that was not the case, that's what we landed on. And of course there are folks who say well, what if you regret it? You know down the line that you didn't. And I would so much rather regret not making a human than the opposite, which people don't talk about loudly because you know there's a lot of shame surrounding it.
Speaker 2:But you go on Reddit. You can find tons of personal anecdotes of people who regret becoming parents, and that's not something that I wanted for myself. Yeah, that's where we landed and I think I feel you know great sense of meaning and purpose. Nurturing animals that's been my not replacement by any means, but that's been. What gives me meaning and purpose is caring for animals, so that's what I love to do, but that's been what gives me meaning and purpose is caring for animals, so that's what I love to do. I recently became an aunt and I am really stoked to be in my nephew and soon to be having a niece.
Speaker 2:As well as lives. They grow up and you know, friends, kids, that I've gotten to be a part of their lives. It's fun. It's also really fun to be able to give them back and not have that 24 seven responsibility. Yeah, so it was. It was kind of a series of things that I would say and I could go on about. You know, the environmental impact of reproducing, economic impact right, it's very expensive. We could talk about mental health impact. So, as somebody who struggles with anxiety, would that be a good thing for me to take on All of these reasons? I think really what's more interesting is to kind of get behind why people do choose to have children and see if they can come up with responses that are beyond that. They have been socialized to believe that that's the only way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, and we'll talk about mental health, the mental health aspect, because that's a key reasoning of Maria's for choosing not to have a child. And having kids is the biggest cataclysmic shift in your life and I agree you have to be ready to take on that responsibility and I completely agree with the children the little beings that you've created deserve that, they deserve that. They deserve people who want them in the world and are ready to take on that responsibility and make the sacrifices. There are sacrifices involved, there's time, there's sacrifice of sleep, and if you don't want to do that, that is fine. I want us to start, as a society, celebrating those choices, because that just means people are choosing to live their best lives for themselves. You know, I do think that there's a lot of pressure and I think we'll get into it more as we dive deeper into Maria's memoir, but I'm just so happy that you had the partner and the confidence in yourself and in your purpose and the peace to not feel pressured to do this if it wasn't something that you.
Speaker 2:It's a decision that has weight on both sides that you know folks just kind of have to figure out what's right for them. Something else I think about is you know people maybe not taking into account. You want to assume that your child is going to, if you reproduce, is going to turn out happy and healthy. But you could have a child that has some really significant needs that are lifelong and like are you prepared to take that on? And if you make a human on purpose, you better be prepared to do anything and everything for them for the rest of your life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. So, like I said, I think this memoir is Maria taking us through the steps that led to her life without having children, and I see it as more of an exploration rather than a reasoning, because, honestly, I don't think women need to have a reason to not have children, even though I think society basically demands a reason. We don't ask, like you said, why do you want to have kids? That's our standard is have kids, and on one hand, I totally get the need, you know, to procreate and keep the world going and all that stuff, but also, like I said earlier, we all start childless. So I just I find it so fascinating. At the beginning of each part of her memoir she has a quote, and I wanted to read this one Child free or childless, if you're a middle-aged woman who isn't a mother, you're living a life that isn't for the faint hearted.
Speaker 1:You will be judged and you will be defined by your biological status, just as mothers are by theirs. It's just that yours is a little bit more complicated, and Nina Jarvis said this. Now, james, I know that you are not middle-aged yet and you're still young enough to where I think, and you look young enough to where I think people maybe aren't casting those judgments verbally to you, like I wouldn't look at you and be like, oh, that woman is past her childbearing age or is definitely going to be childless, but have you had a situation where you've been shamed by people or not quite experiencing that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, not shamed directly, although I would say you know indirectly. We have political leaders who very much believe and understand each that women should not be working and should be raising a family. Like this, you know back to the 1950s era, mindset which you know I take personal offense to.
Speaker 1:I take personal offense to that. For you too, girl.
Speaker 2:That's not okay. Yeah, and you think handmaid's tale. It's kind of scary to think it's not out of the possibility that our world could come to that. I certainly hope it doesn't.
Speaker 2:But on a more direct level, I wouldn't say I've ever felt shamed and my parents, luckily, have been very accepting and I've been very open with them about my decision to not have children. But, funny enough, my mother-in-law I'm pretty sure she just thought Jamie's going to change her mind. She's going to change, you know, I'm pretty sure she just thought Jamie's going to change her mind. She's going to change, you know, her son's mind. But we've now been married five years, so I think the longer it goes on, the more she's like oh yeah, maybe that's not going to happen. And I've definitely had people just not out of any malice just assume I was a mother Like, oh you know, how many kids do you have? Or a grocery clerk being like it's interesting. The assumption is definitely that women have children, unless they tell you otherwise. But to your point, I still look like I could be having children in the years to come. So we'll see how that changes over time.
Speaker 1:But I want to talk about Maria's near drowning experience, because this was something that was the first ding in her head to the fact that maybe she didn't want to take on what it meant to be a mother and to have children when she's 21,. She's on holiday with her friends and she gets pulled into the sea while trying to save someone else. The tide had pulled somebody else out and they created one of those human chains, but she gets sucked out of the chain. She writes about the moment when she realized she was dying. She writes the mind slowing into lucid waves of sorrow, regret and anguish and she thinks about all the things in life that she'll miss and she apologizes for the things left unsaid. She writes the loneliness and desolation was profound. Somehow she ends up on the sand, but she's far away from where everybody else was looking for and hoping that she'd turn up. Fortunately, a young man just happens to be there. He had wanted to get away from the crowd and he's able to resuscitate her. She had to be there. He had wanted to get away from the crowd and he's able to resuscitate her. She had to be resuscitated.
Speaker 1:She writes I have returned to life, but differently. The invincibility of youth had been stripped away Underneath. It was a raw understanding of the fragility of existence. It was a knowledge that it would impel me to chase my dreams and inform the biggest choices I was yet to make in the years ahead. So even at a young age, she knows that she doesn't want the life that her mother wants for her. She writes.
Speaker 1:I was born in the 1950s to working class Irish Catholic parents who had lived through the second world war and wanted nothing more than peace, stability and the chance to push their three children up the social ladder. In her mother's eyes quote going to university was in part about finding a husband with good prospects. She wanted me to have a career, but one that fitted in with a family life, and it wasn't just mom extolling this. Marriage and a family were the expectations of most of my friends, even those who had career ambitions. I didn't know anyone else who dreamt of wandering around the world unfettered. So you'd mentioned earlier that you feel like your parents never put a lot of pressure on you and they've been very great about your life choices and, you know, not making you feel ashamed of that.
Speaker 1:But, did you ever get a sense, growing up, of the life that your parents wanted for you? Were they pretty vocal about it? Because my mom I feel like she talked so much. My mom always wanted a lot of kids and she was only able to have me and I definitely felt like it was sort of my job to grow up, become a mom and, like, have a lot of kids.
Speaker 2:Do you feel like your parents ever? No, I think I never felt pressured to even get married, if I'm being honest. What about go to college? Going to college was a that's just understood and I didn't push back on that. I thought that was kind of the thing that I thought like that's the only way to be, which I now know there are other pathways.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, I think my parents my dad particularly just wanted me to be educated and be able to be self-sufficient. So, yeah, I think he's taken a lot of pride in career successes that I've had over the years. My mom, honestly, I think she just has always wanted me to be happy, whatever that looks like to me, which is really, really great. So, yeah, I think they both mom in particular like looked forward to becoming a grandparent, but that pressure was never directed at me, or my brother, honestly, but lucky for her, it happened. So my brother and his wife had a child and have another on the way, and she gets to be a big part of their lives. So they live nearby, so I'm really glad that she got that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, unfortunately for Maria, her mother not the same as your mom, and we love Jamie's mom. Now, this is different generations Like Maria is basically the same age as our parents, right? So, of course, coming off of World War II, the world looked so different and I do feel like there was probably just like an expectation to replace the loss of lives that happened. That's literally why that generation is called the baby boomers, right, because the men came home and it was time to get everything running back up again. So I try to put myself in Maria's mother's shoes just to have compassion for her, because she's a pretty harsh individual. Maria writes this I sacrificed everything for you, she would wail. I didn't ask to be born, I'd yell back. She never explained what those sacrifices were. Only with hindsight did I realize how many of her desires had been subsumed by devotion for her children. I didn't want to follow her example. And she writes that she knew not living the life her mother wanted for her was going to be a problem. So let's get more into her mom.
Speaker 1:She does write. She was nurturing, tender and supportive. She had a great sense of humor, laughing easily, and often she was also a fierce and controlling matriarch who brandished guilt like a weapon. Her mother constantly talks to Maria, her only daughter, about the life she wants for her, the big white wedding that she was already saving for when Maria was seven. She tells Maria that the happiest time in her life was when her children were young and needed her. There's like this sense of purpose that people try to tie having children to and look if having children is your purpose and that makes you feel fulfilled. That's incredible, like I felt, like it was part of my purpose. But to imply that a woman has no purpose if she doesn't have children, that's where I get really pissed off, because, like you, can still do a lot of good in the world without bringing children into the world.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and arguably the world is better off for your children by other people not having children because they're not putting added. What's the word I want to use? Using resources, basically, yeah, exactly yeah.
Speaker 1:Not taxing our world any further, yeah, and to me, like a happier society is a better performing, functioning society, and so, like you said earlier, I mean having kids is not for the faint of heart Like it can get really, really difficult and it can be a mental, emotional, physical drain. And if you don't want that and you're happy without, I'm happy for you, I'm happy for all of us.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, yeah, I also wonder with Maria's mother in particular, and just you know, people in general, religion can play a really big part in people's perspectives about this and, depending on how dev devout they are like I don't know of any religious texts that isn't of the like be fruitful and multiply mentality.
Speaker 1:So do you remember what the priest said at our wedding yeah, he said a few times the multiple children you will have, the multiple children you will have, and it's like, are you helping us pay for these multiple children, sir?
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, I think there's some people who just they can't wrap their mind around the fact that somebody would choose to be married and not have children. Like they can make sense of you know an unwed woman, right, Spinster makes sense that she doesn't have kids. But yeah, it's. People are products of their environment and upbringing and it takes a lot to break out of that mold and think differently.
Speaker 1:But yeah, Good for her, not for you. It's fine. It's fine, not for you, yeah. So Maria is restless, even as a child. She wants more from this life. That's already been mapped out for her. She writes I long for something bigger and exciting. I couldn't wait for my real life to begin.
Speaker 1:She starts to travel as soon as she can, and all through college. But because she can't quite figure out how to turn traveling into career, she gets a degree and emerges as a teacher in Liverpool. Very quickly she realizes it's not for her. She writes your chief job is to keep bums in the seats. Mr Tucker, the school principal, tells me Sometimes I was dealing with near riots. Once, when things were getting really out of hand, I barricaded the door with my body. Two of the boys yanked me aside while the other spilled out and raced down the hallway. While I stood there shaking, one boy stopped long enough to write Mr Tucker is a fucker on a wall in big letters with an indelible ink pen he'd snatched from my desk. Later I got reprimanded for allowing him to do that. Okay, so I know you did a stint with TFA after college and TFA stands for Teach for America and I know you had some difficult moments in the classroom.
Speaker 2:Yes, so I will start by saying that, hearing Maria's experience, it sounds eerily familiar. I taught at a school that was a grade 6 through 12 all-boys public charter and if you know anything about charter schools you know that they have less regulations than typical traditional public schools. For better and for worse, they can represent the best of the best, they can represent the worst of the worst, and mine was that worst of the worst variety. I equated the school environment really to a fight club basically, and if you're in the education field you're familiar with the school to prison pipeline concept of if there are not really intentional interventions taken on a systematic level, that schools really kind of just are funneling kids from the schoolhouse into a future that might very well include incarceration.
Speaker 2:I don't blame parents, particularly when we're talking about people, when we're talking about intergenerational poverty, that is, poverty from grandparents to parents to kids. It's very hard to break that cycle of what you were raised in and you know if you're coming from that socioeconomic background it is unlikely that you had the knowledge and or resources to not become a parent, right, if you were fertile and sexually active. So I don't blame anyone. You know, who has, doesn't have many means, who ends up becoming a parent. I think most people do the best that they can with what they have.
Speaker 2:What I do think is that our school system in this country needs to do more for children who are raised in low income communities, because it's not enough to say you get the same thing as kids who are in more affluent communities and like that's a quality, no, like we need equity, which is giving people what they need to have the same degree of success. So that did not happen where I was to have the same degree of success. So that did not happen where I was. And you know kids who made it out and who knows of my middle schoolers who ended up going to college. They were the exception, not the rule. But I will say you know that experience for me, I would say school specifics apart becoming a middle schooler straight out of college is a pretty good way to have you reflect on whether or not having children is right for you, because we hear having children, we think cute little babies, but those babies grow up and, yeah, are you prepared to deal with teens?
Speaker 1:Yeah, pete, what you said about equity, because I think that that was fantastic and really strong and I want it repeated.
Speaker 2:I think I just said there's a difference between equality and equity. Equality giving people the same thing as one another. Equity recognizing that we don't all have the same starting point, so folks might need different things to have the same degree of success. So that's really what we should be shooting for If we want everyone in our country, all the children in our country, to have a chance at contributing members of our society, which we should want. That that's better for all of us, right? Yeah, what's a rising tide lifts all boats concept? You know we don't benefit by having people who are kept down. We, as a society, complain about them. You can't complain about people and, at the same point, be like pull yourself up by the bootstraps. Those are conflicting things. Yeah, either don't complain or help them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so in your experience, because in many of these cases you know you talked about intergenerational poverty and people maybe becoming parents a little bit earlier than you know. Their frontal lobes aren't even developed. How can you parent someone when you're still learning how to be a grown up yourself and learning what responsibilities are? Did you find yourself also having to like, not only teach math but also be like this is what good is and this you know? Like?
Speaker 2:where is there like a moral compass aspect, or did you just try your best to stick to the studious component. Yeah, I mean, I think I saw myself as a role model and, given that I was still in my early twenties at that time and I was teaching teenagers, I don't think any of them thought of me as a mother figure, the way they thought of some of the older teachers as such, but maybe as like a big sister figure or, yeah, just just a role model. So I tried to do that and I think I would do that even if I was working with all kids who were super well adjusted right. We're not robots. So to take away the human element of interactions, they just stick to the math curriculum and nothing further like that doesn't seem natural. But yeah, there's a lot expected of teachers in terms of having to teach curriculum, having to behavior manage, having to be a bodyguard, having to provide mental health support. It's a lot, it's a lot, yeah.
Speaker 1:And you know Maria doesn't say that she's, she says Liverpool, and I have no idea what that means socioeconomic wise. But just because kids come from an affluent area, we all know, that does not mean that they are not fucked up too, you know, yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's just uh, it's just like let's just support our teachers at the end of the day it was really interesting, you know, I think while I was out of the classroom at this time when COVID happened and you hear all the parents being like what do you mean? I have to have my child at home full time now. I'm not prepared for this and it's kind of like, well, should you have children if you're not willing to take care of them around the clock, like if you needed to? It's kind of what we've become used to as a society, which is like you send the child off to daycare and then to primary school once they're of that age and you go to work and then your parenting hours are really mornings, evenings, weekends, but that really got flipped on its head.
Speaker 1:It did and, honestly, there were people who were still trying to work. They were trying to do these jobs all of a sudden from their living rooms, from their computers and having kids run around. I mean, it was just a really difficult situation all around, you know.
Speaker 2:And that does make me think. I will say, you know, I've also considered if I lived in a different country, a country that did have more social supports for parents, maybe that would have made me reconsider. But in this country it's, we really want you to have kids and we're also not going to help you pay for them or for their childcare, like it's fucked up.
Speaker 1:Let's just say what it is it's super fucked up, yeah, okay, getting back to Maria At this point in her life, when she's right out of college, she's dating someone new and her mother is increasing the pressure for her to start a family and get married. Her mother tells her quote it's good to have your babies when you're young, you can grow up together. But Traveling again for life to feel open-ended and full of surprise once more, I really didn't like that. Have your babies when you're young, you can grow up together. There was something about it that just I was bumping on man. I can't put my finger on it, but it feels. It feels wrong to me.
Speaker 2:I thought she was going to say something like your body will bounce back.
Speaker 1:Well, that too we can get told. Maria eventually breaks up with this guy and meets Joe. She writes I hadn't expected to fall in love, nevermind so fast or so deeply. I knew it was folly. He made it clear from the beginning that mountaineering was his first priority. He wanted me in his life, but on his terms. When he was home I curled my life around his caring for him, becoming a domestic creature I hardly recognized. And she knows that her devotion to him is also ironic because she swore she'd never get involved with a mountaineer, a man who takes such risks. She knew women and families were ruined by the heartbreak and grief when one of these men didn't come back.
Speaker 1:And this part of the memoir was really brief, because she actually has a separate memoir about her relationship and her feelings with Joe and he disappears on a trip to Mount Everest and she navigates the grief as best she can. And she navigates the grief as best she can, and one way that she does that is by going across the world to Canada. So in Canada she applies for a job teaching on a remote island through a one-year teacher exchange program. She writes about joking with a friend who chastises her for not realizing how remote this island is. There's not a lot of people that live here. You have to take a ferry to get to the mainland. She thought she was going to be like going to Vancouver on the weekends Not really possible but she's having a chat with her friend and her friend is like oh well, maybe you'll meet the man of your dreams there. And they kind of like laugh about it. And then that's exactly what happens, because she meets her future husband, dague. She writes about noticing him at the grocery store and then later on the ferry and she's really attracted to him. She's like this guy's pretty cute. And then later she's taking this tai chi class at the community center because there's nothing else to do in this town. And he's there and it's her, him and then a bunch of older people.
Speaker 1:And she writes awkwardly, attempting tai chi in front of the man I'd fallen in lust with but not yet met was excruciating. I only looked over at him once and he was watching me. But she writes about still feeling really mixed up about Joe and the fact that his body was never found In her mind. She feels like he could still show up one day. She doesn't really have that closure, but still she invites Daig to her birthday party because she's really interested in him and she is so awkward around him. She writes I think when I first saw Dague, a door in my heart that had long been shut suddenly swung open.
Speaker 1:As much as I wanted to step through it, I was terrified of the consequences, of more loss. I guess I was trying to scare him away. I almost succeeded, and you know, one thing that I've always really admired about you, jamie, is that I feel like you really take the time to check in with yourself after a relationship is over. I've had people in my life who just are like relationship jumpers and they don't take the time to learn to love themselves again. As cheesy as that sounds. Has this been a very intentional thing in your life?
Speaker 2:I think between relationships, that I haven't pursued dating again until I felt like I was ready to do so, and sometimes that was relatively quickly and sometimes it was years. I can't say that I can relate to the experience of being unprepared for a relationship and then meeting the right person at the wrong time. If you will, I haven't had that experience. I've had maybe wrong person at the right time and then right person at the right time. But yeah, it sounds like that's what she experienced. But I will say, you know, I think yeah, I've had years in my dating history. There were years that I went without being in a relationship and then there were times where I was in, you know, three serious relationships within a series of two years and I'm like whoa, that was kind of fast in hindsight but I felt ready for it, so it never bit me in the butt.
Speaker 1:Yeah, was there ever a point where, on these longer breaks, where you almost found yourself convincing yourself that it was time, that you were good, that you know cause? I've also had friends who were kind of like I don't know if I want to date anymore. I feel pretty okay by myself and maybe it's not worth the risk of heartbreak or the risk of loss Kind of like she talks about here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I always, you know, some people will say, like they've always wanted children. I think I always, you know, some people will say, like they've always wanted children. I think I've always wanted a life partner, like I knew that that's what I really liked, the concept of it and the idea of being in love and being a team with somebody. So, that being said, I did get to the point in relationships where I said, you know what? I'd rather be alone than be with this wrong person. That's slightly different. But even when I was single, the hope was that I would find a be alone than be with this wrong person. That's slightly different.
Speaker 1:But even when I was single, the hope was that I would find a right person to be with. The hope always outweighed the potential heartbreak. It was always worth diving off the deep end. Yeah, I'm a romantic at heart, so I feel like I had my journey to a life partner been different, like more like yours. I think I would have been the same way, but who knows? I also empathize with people who have really had their heart broken and I get wanting to protect yourself, you know. But life can be so beautiful if you open yourself up to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, or I'm thinking of, you know, folks I know who have been open and just not found the right person, and that gets really devastating. So at a certain point they, you know, kind of close themselves off to it. Not, I mean, if it knocked on their door they would open it, but they're not putting themselves out there in the same way. Yeah, they're off the apps. It's like it's a self-preservation thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah Well. Finally Maria and Daig connect and she tells him everything about Joe and they talk about a future together. She writes that he'd always imagined having a family, a large one, but I had fears around motherhood rooted in trauma. The near-drowning experience in my early 20s had taught me all I needed to know about the fine line between life and death. Nine years later, that was compounded when Joe disappeared on Everest.
Speaker 1:The moment I learned of his death, I understood there was no way to defend oneself against such pain, except not to love so deeply. Since then, love had been shadowed by fear. No matter how I tried to rationalize it. The thought of having a child, of opening myself up to the possibility of the worst kind of bereavement, terrified me. I decided not to worry about it. It wasn't clear if our affair would go anywhere. Just enjoy this, I told myself, don't project into the future. I just really felt for her because after I had my second, I had self-diagnosed because it was fleeting, believe me. I was ready to go to the doctor, but then, luckily, it dissipated Anticipatory anxiety, which is when you get so hyper-focused on, in my case, the worst possible outcome happening, and I had moments where I was afraid of my husband and daughter even leaving the house because I was convinced that they were going to get into a car accident and not return.
Speaker 1:And my husband allowed me to track his location and I would literally watch his car like drive her to school and drive back. And, like I said, luckily this dissipated within a few days, or else I really would have seeked professional help. But it is really horrifying to think about losing my children or something happening to them and, believe me, those thoughts pop in Every day. Those thoughts pop in. I can see horrible things happening and I just have to remind myself that they're here and that they're okay and that they're healthy, and to be grateful for that and to live in the present, because you never know what life is going to give you good or bad. And so I just was so heartbroken for her that she was still going through life being led by this fear that overshadowed the love. That's just such a scary place to exist from and to live your day to day. You know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's like making decisions based in fear is disempowering, versus making decisions based on you know, your values, beliefs or information is empowering.
Speaker 1:And, as it happens, this family thing will come up again because she and Dave grow closer. He helps her get over her fear of drowning, slowly supporting her to to swim again. They actually end up going back to the spot years later where it happened and of course they grow more and more serious and the pressures start to close in. One person even tells her that she should have a child because it will complete her as a woman later. Another will ask won't you get lonely when you're old? And we've already talked about those things. That's a classic. That's classic.
Speaker 1:Her mother starts guilting her about rooting her life so far away from her. Her mother's back in Britain, maria's in Vancouver. She and Dake do end up getting married. They love each other, but the timing of it is actually because if they don't, maria can't stay in Canada anymore and will have to go back to England. So they decide to kind of elope and not tell anyone until they've made it a year, because then they feel like if they've made it a year, then great, and if they don't, and divorce, no harm, no foul.
Speaker 1:But Maria feels a lot of guilt because her mother wanted the big wedding for her and she's not able to give it to her. She realizes that she needs to confront her feelings about losing Joe and this is what leads her to writing her first memoir. She writes I thought about why I needed to put myself and dig through this. We were less than halfway through our trial year of marriage, but he made me feel secure and loved in a way Joe never had. I was astonished by our happiness. Yet to embrace it fully, I felt I had to close things with Joe to validate the good.
Speaker 1:Catharsis is exhausting. So she goes through all of her journals and she writes this really long article, titled Only His Girlfriend, about her experience of dating and losing Joe. She wanted to show that quote. A love cut short early on brings its own unique pain. That bereavement can't be evaluated and compared. I think she felt like her pain was dismissed because she wasn't his wife. You know which I get Love is love. She ends up getting a book deal from the article and this new path opens for her one as a writer. So during a trip back to Britain to meet with her publisher, she has to finally tell her parents that she got married.
Speaker 1:Maria writes that she knows she's breaking her mother's heart and ruining her dreams. Surprisingly, her mother very quickly pivots to children a new hope. At this point they no longer want one large family because they love to travel, and Dague sees that that would be pretty hard to do with lots of kids. But she writes, he thought we should have one child who could accompany us on our travels. I had told him about my fears of motherhood and he regularly felt the brunt of my separation anxiety worse than ever now, the eruption of terror when he left the house on an errand that I might not see him again. If I was like that with him, how would I be with our child? She knows that having a child would change everything and that it's not this simple, easy that dague thinks it is strap a baby on your back and let's jet set around the world. But this is something that he'll have to come to his own conclusion on.
Speaker 1:Maria knows herself, though, and she doesn't want children. She writes occasionally I worried if there was something psychologically wrong with me. So her and her mother's relationship grows even more tense after the death of maria's father, and at one point maria's mom tells her that she isn't the daughter she wanted. And she actually says this twice, because it happens like in the heat of the moment and then Maria calls her back and is like, okay, you said this. And Maria's mom is like, yes, you're not the daughter I wanted, which is? I mean, that is just really shitty. What the fuck Maria's mom? Maria just feels really guilty for trying to live the life that she wants to live. And the children thing just keeps coming up when wants to live. And the children thing just keeps coming up when they're building their dream home and they don't include a lot of bedrooms. The contractor's like don't you want a room for the kids? When they're traveling, they do this incredible kayak trip around the world that is sponsored by a few companies because she signs a contract to write a book about it.
Speaker 1:Another book, a Boat in Our Baggage and almost all the places they go, maria is looked at with pity for not having a child. She writes in comparison to these women, I had huge freedoms and opportunities. I had chosen my husband. I could earn my own living, direct my destiny, control my fertility, travel at will, and yet I lacked the one thing in their view that gave life purpose a child. And I wish that we could get into all the incredible parts of her traveling, because, even though that life is very much not for me, they literally kayak in open water and they live in tents on the beach. I mean it's very cool.
Speaker 1:They go down the Ganges in India. It was really cool to experience it through Maria's retelling and a way to kind of do it without actually having to do it myself. But she does write that through this trip her fear of loss starts to diminish. And in your 20s you did a solo backpacking trip through Europe. Tell us a little bit about that. And then, what did you learn about the world? And what did you learn about?
Speaker 2:yourself. So I was about 25. I had saved up after two years of teaching and I had not done the study abroad thing in college like a number of my peers had and, yeah, just had a desire to see the world outside the US in a meaningful way. So I decided on Western and Central Europe and kind of mapped out a six week plan of bopping around 10 different countries, via bus primarily, and staying in youth hostels, and I will say that it definitely it was a really cool experience.
Speaker 2:When I first got there, when I first got to the hostel, after all day travel in London, I'm in this room bunk bed with 30 women that I don't know. That's how this is arranged. And I'm like, oh shit, what did I just do? And my dad had said to me when I left, he gave me his credit card. He's like if you want to fly home at any point, just come home. He had concerns for me. I love that. Oh, I love that. But I figured it out, I slept it off and the next day I was like, okay, I'm going to go out, going to do the things.
Speaker 2:I ended up, you know, through staying at youth hostels and going on a bus that was geared towards young travelers, met a number of tons of Australians, a couple of Canadians. It was very easy to meet people to go do things with. So while I was traveling independently, I wasn't really alone. If I didn't want to be, I will say that. You know, being a young, petite woman, I was conscious of not going places alone at night just for safety concerns, which sucks, because there's cool nightlife stuff and particularly in Berlin the clubs are where it's at. But I wouldn't have felt comfortable doing that without somebody I actually know. But yeah, I got to see tons of sites, got to experience a lot of different cultures and food and languages, and I think that was the thing navigating these places where I didn't speak the dominant language. A lot of them did speak English but, you know, not all the signage is available in English, so, just having to figure it out, I definitely got on some trains that were not the correct train and then it's like, okay, that was wrong, we got to recoup from that, figure it out, and that was really my takeaway from the whole thing was I proved to myself that I had the skills to be able to navigate the world and yeah, so it was a big confidence builder. I'd say After six weeks I was ready to come home.
Speaker 2:Traveling can be exhausting, but yeah, I made it and I think because of that experience I have gone abroad, or I should say I have gone out of the country since then, to Central America. But I wouldn't say I have a huge wanderlust. I kind of feel like you know what I did. I did that in a big way and if I get opportunities to do more of that, great. But you know my husband too. He's done enough travel to be like there's so much in our backyard. You know, in our state we live in Florida, in our country there's so many beautiful places in the US that we haven't been to. We focus a lot on how can we create a life that we don't need a vacation from and really appreciate the things around us. But I still think there's something to be said for experiencing different cultures and I would like to do more of that. I haven't been to Asia, so that's on my list.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I really want to go to Japan. I've always wanted to see the world, but I've never been. It just feels like Maria has to do this, or she feels like a part of her is dying, is dormant, you know, and so it's great. I mean, she made it work for her, she literally created this opportunity so that she can travel the world for a living. That's pretty badass, you know, and I do agree.
Speaker 1:I think it's just really important to expand your horizons. And if you can't travel, that's what a library is for. A library is a way to freely travel and experience cultures and look at photos and just read other people's stories from living in all different parts of the world. There's no excuse for not broadening your horizons. I think you can do that without physically traveling to a different country. I think it's really important.
Speaker 1:So after this trip around the world, Dake comes to understand that having a child isn't compatible with the life that he wants to leave either, which is a huge relief for Maria. At this point she's kind of in her late 30s or in her early 40s even maybe, and so she's like it's still sort of possible. But goodness, she writes, he says, but if we're not going to have kids, we have to keep taking advantage of the freedom that that gives us. We've got to keep doing interesting things even more interesting. Do you and your husband feel at all that pressure Because you've decided to be dinks? You have to not make up for it somehow. Even though another term is kind of escaping me, Do you have to almost justify your choice?
Speaker 2:Yeah, take advantage of that. Do you have to almost justify your choice? Take advantage of that. Yeah, Sometimes I think you know weekends are a prime example of we have the freedom to go do whatever we want. So going out and doing things that folks with kids wouldn't be able to do at the drop of the hat, that's something that is definitely top of mind. But I also think you don't need to justify not having children with something else. You can just not have children. You know what I mean. You don't need like an excuse to not.
Speaker 1:So it felt like Dague very much had some sort of guilt response yeah, yeah, because it can be really hard to let go of that dream, yeah exactly, so that was his trade off?
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, and that's what they do. They live a very interesting life. They fill their lives with travel, create a business from it. Like I said, maria writes about it and sells multiple books about her life. She and her mother do enter a new era when Maria is finally truthful with her about how she feels and how her mother's remark made her feel and the guilt that was creating a huge divide between them. She tells her quote that I loved her greatly, but I couldn't bring myself to sacrifice my dreams for hers. I had to make my own life. She continues. It changed everything between us. It was as if a festering boil had been lanced. The poison allowed to seep away. I would never fully escape her guilt trips she was, after all, a master at creating those but I could now put them into proper perspective. Finally, we were friends.
Speaker 1:Okay, so at the end of Maria's mother's life, she does ask Maria if she ever regrets not having children. Maria writes what could I say? That I was painfully sorry for denying her such joy, but it was something I just couldn't do for her. I took a deep breath. No, mom, I said Never. I'm really happy with my life. Her face broke into a smile. I'm so relieved, maria. I've always worried about it and I just thought that that was such a lovely moment between them and I was glad that they got to experience this, because I feel like you come to understand that Maria's mother felt like there was one path to happiness, the path that she took to happiness, even though she also seemed kind of not happy not happy, I know, I know, but it's complicated right. It seems like one of her biggest fears was that Maria would not be happy if she didn't have kids, and so just to finally be able to come to peace with that, that Maria was happy, living life on her own terms, and I feel like that gave Maria a lot of peace too, which was nice, because she didn't disregard her mother. When her mother said these things about her, you know how she wasn't the daughter she wanted. She didn't choose to cut her mother out of her life. That was still a relationship that she wanted mended, and I think that she was able to mend it at the end, which is really lovely, you know.
Speaker 1:And then, a really interesting thing about her entire memoir is that, even though she doesn't have biological children, she still has experiences of loss, losing children that aren't her own, but children that she loves, and there are two stories that happen as she travels. The first is in Vietnam, and she writes about this experience in one of her books. There are two street children that she and Dake desperately try to arrange a better life for, and she writes about the love rush she experiences when she meets Bach and if you remember, bach was one of the women that she dedicated the memoir to and she wrote Wherever you Are, and she likens it to the feelings her friends explained upon meeting their babies for the first time. Now Bach and her brother have to work on the streets to earn money for their dad. He's 60 years old and he's blind and he has no teeth and he lives kind of far away, and Maria and her husband are only in Vietnam for a short while, but they try really hard to get Bach and her older brother, vin, to get accepted into an SOS children's village, and this was a really interesting. I'd never heard of SOS children's village, have you? Have you heard of this company? This is from Maria's book.
Speaker 1:The SOS children's villages were started by a man from Austria, hermann Miner. He was four years old when his mother died and his eldest sister had stepped in to raise him and his six siblings. During the Second World War he fought in Russia, and the suffering of orphaned and abandoned children he witnessed during and after the war led him to give up medical studies and pursue his idea for a children's village. His mission was simple Children need a mother, siblings, a house, community. He garnered supporters and in 1949, the first SOS children's village was established in Imst, austria.
Speaker 1:Each village compromises of 10 or more family houses. Each house has a mother caring for up to 10 children of various ages. The children go to school and get medical care in the wider community. At 18, they move into a single-sex youth house in the village where they can live while they study or get jobs. But the original house and family where they were originally grouped remains their home, even when they leave the village to start their own lives. The first SOS village in Vietnam was set up in Saigon in the 1960s because of all the children orphaned by the American War. Isn't that such a beautiful concept? Why have I not heard about this? Yeah, that is.
Speaker 2:It's the best situation of a group home. You hear group home horror stories from foster children, but that sounds like it's being done right and makes me think of an interview I saw once with a woman who fostered tons of young girls over the years and much like speaking of the villages, she had a agreement with them that when they aged out of the system, as long as they were continuing to go to school or getting a job, that she would provide housing for them.
Speaker 1:So yeah, really cool. I love these reminders. There are really good people in the world doing good things. Unfortunately, this story doesn't have a happy ending because at some point Bach and Winn become too hard to track down when this new stepmother comes in, takes them away and potentially she sells young Bach, because men come across the border from China and Taiwan and pay for pretty young virgins. Maria never finds out what happens to her and she writes Bach will be in her 30s.
Speaker 1:Now it's hard for me to think about where she is, how she lives, what she has experienced. I doubt she remembers the strange lady who took her on a trip to Ha Long Bay, but I remember her often, and always with a heavy heart. Fearing loss was one of the reasons I decided to not have children, yet loss found me all the same. So it's just a heartbreaking story. And I just to say hannah is her niece, who was very helpful in getting her and dake back to canada after his accident in barcelona, and so she also sees her as kind of like a child figure in their world. And then the other child that she meets in her travels that had a big effect on her is in kenya, and this is agnes. So agnes was offered a place at the university of nairobi because of her excellent grades, but she says she cannot go because her father and the other village elders will not support her because she will not be cut. They're punishing her for refusing to undergo female genital mutilation and her village.
Speaker 1:Circumcision was regarded as a necessary rite of passage into adulthood for both men and women. It was performed as a ritual and followed with big celebrations, but it's a brutal process of cutting away the clitoris and sometimes external genital parts without anesthetic. It often led to long-term medical problems, complications during childbirth, fistulas, chronic infections, non-dimension painful sex, depression and post-traumatic stress. These women were regarded as unclean and a disgrace to their families if they decided not to get cut and Agnes is very brave to fight this because it is very taboo to not undergo FGM female genital mutilation.
Speaker 1:Maria and her husband start the Agnes Scholarship Fund with support from others. They support her to go to school and they're constantly communicating. And then Agnes goes silent and finally Maria gets a message from her. Agnes has had a baby and she's been so afraid to tell Maria, feeling that the group would withdraw their support. And some of the women do. But Maria finds other women to step in and they're able to keep Agnes in school. And Agnes goes on to graduate and is a barrister now, which is a lawyer. She works on children's rights and anti-FGM issues. She raises her family alone and has a second child and she sends photos to Maria all the time.
Speaker 1:Maria writes when my phone rings as messages and photos of Adrian and his baby sister Cerrone arrive. I remember what my mother-in-law, justina, once said when you have a child, happiness and love grow and with each child that comes, the love expands to encompass them. And Agnes tells Maria that she is the best thing that ever happened to her and wants to know if Maria will grant her permission to call her mother. Maria says, of course, and Agnes answers back you are full of love and care. I love you and always will do, mama. It's so sweet because Maria, at this point she's like who would have thought I would have become a mother in my 60s. You know, and it just goes to show, just because women people choose not to have children doesn't mean that they won't have an effect on people's lives, and you can still. There are so many children out there who need support and if you're able to do that, even with children. It's a worthy cause for sure.
Speaker 1:Towards the end of her memoir, maria does write about the niggling fear of aging without children, but she seems to make peace with it.
Speaker 1:She writes I stopped worrying about creating a community. I realized it was already there. It was in all the places we touched down that we were part of a huge web stretching around the world connecting us to our far-flung tribe. I also realized the importance of recognizing and valuing the people who hold you in their thoughts, who you can call on in the middle of the night, full of fears, after something terrible has happened, who will still remember you, tell stories about you long after you have gone from the earth, whose children will be like rockets heading into the future, taking a little bit of you with them. And I know that you talked earlier about how that's a big thing, that that's like a cliche thing. That people say is oh, what happens when you get old? And I just I feel like her answer is so beautiful, like again, it's just this idea that it's not just your biological children that you can leave your stories with and leave your mark on. You can leave your mark on the world you know, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:And when it comes to the actual who's going to take care of you if and when you can't take care of yourself, to presume that children could, would, should do that for their parents yeah, I think that's riskier than you know. Setting yourself up financially to be able to take care of yourself, yeah, agreed. Or, even better, living in a society that takes care of their elders you know, collectively, but that would be lovely.
Speaker 1:That was Maria Coffey's. Instead, navigating the Adventures of a Child's Free Life, my biggest takeaway was just life is one big adventure and it can be terrifying. Opening yourself up to love means opening yourself up to the potential of loss. But, like I said before, you don't have to have biological children to mother someone, and having children doesn't mean they'll care for you as you age, or even love you or even like you so, or vice versa.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think we need to just start supporting people in the choices that they make, especially when they do not affect you at all. I think we just need to support women, support their choices.
Speaker 2:I hope we continue to get closer to the point where women have all the same life options that men do the options to have children or not, the options to have a career or not, the options to travel the world or not. It shouldn't be our outcomes shouldn't be dictated based on our gender.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Amen, I love it and I love you, jamie. Thank you so much for chatting with me today about Maria Coffey's memoir. I got to go pick my kids up from school.
Speaker 2:I'm going to go feed myself, nurture my inner child. Bye, love you. Bye, love you.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to Babes in Bookland. To access the full version of this episode, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or support us on Patreon. Visit babesinbooklandcom for more information.
