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Babes in Bookland
A podcast celebrating women's memoirs, one story at a time!
Babes in Bookland
The Playboy Prison // Part Two of Crystal Hefner's "Only Say Good Things"
What happens when the fairy tale turns out to be a gilded cage?
In part two this raw and revealing exploration, we continue our conversation about Crystal Hefner's memoir "Only Say Good Things" alongside Holly Madison's "Down the Rabbit Hole" to uncover the dark reality behind the Playboy Mansion's glamorous façade.
The conversation peels back layers of manipulation, control, and psychological erosion that defined life for Hugh Hefner's girlfriends. Despite the surface-level luxuries—weekly allowances, on-demand meals, and leisure time—both women describe a suffocating environment of strict curfews, surveillance, and emotional abuse. "It was an invisible trap framed by the language of choice," Crystal writes, capturing how even their apparent freedom was an illusion.
Brett and I thoughtfully explore the complexity of these women's experiences, wrestling with challenging questions: Why didn't they just leave? What kept them returning? How do we reconcile their agency with the manipulation they faced? Through this nuanced discussion, we try to understand how gradually these women lost their sense of identity and worth outside the mansion's walls—to the point where both became suicidal and required medication for depression.
Crystal's journey—escaping, returning, marrying Hefner, and finally finding herself after his death—ultimately offers hope. "I used to only say good things, but now I say whatever I want," she concludes, reclaiming her voice after years of silence. Her story reminds us that true freedom isn't about material luxury but about maintaining your identity, even in the most golden of cages.
Join us for this powerful conversation about power dynamics, self-worth, and the courage it takes to finally tell your truth.
Subscribe now to hear the full episode and support women's stories being told in their own words.
Listener discretion advised: this episode includes adult language and discussion about sexual abuse and trauma
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Link to this episodes books:
Only Say Good Things by Crystal Hefner
Down the Rabbit Hole by Holly Madison
This episode is produced, recorded, and its content edited by me.
Technical editing by Brianna Picon
Theme song by Devin Kennedy
Special thanks to my dear friend, Brett!
Xx, Alex
Hey guys, welcome back to Babes in Bookland. If you remember, last week Brett and I started our discussion about Crystal Hefner's Only Say Good Things Surviving Playboy and Finding Myself. We also sprinkled in a little bit of Holly Madison's Down the Rabbit Hole. We're continuing that discussion this week. Here we go. Okay, brett, we're back In part one. We discussed more of Holly's memoir and we met Crystal and learned a little bit about her background, and both women talked about how safe they felt when they first moved into the Playboy Mansion.
Speaker 2:Here we go, part two.
Speaker 1:Holly also uses the word safe at a certain point in her memoir. She's living in the mansion after 9-11 happens and she writes about how she remembers how she felt so safe being in the mansion. So again, I think it reminds me of just these birds with broken wings, and Hef knew how to fucking find them and he brought them into his gilded cage and they didn't know the door was shutting behind them.
Speaker 2:You know, and let's also recall the picture that they both paint, which was that sure, the nights were bad but the days were good. You know, they were given money and time to just kind of spend on their beauty treatments and their looks and hanging out by the pool they could pick up the phone and the kitchen staff would make them anything they wanted, from grilled cheese sandwich to spaghetti, to filet mignon to whatever, and it was kind of a carefree, lovely lifestyle-ish.
Speaker 1:Holly talks a lot about how manipulative the other girlfriends were. I mean, she cries almost every day. There were a lot of rules that you had to learn very quickly and if you broke them, the curfews.
Speaker 1:And you know you talk about this allowance, but Crystal writes that all of it was a performance and that they had to perform for daddy and beg for the money and it was a whole show of him giving them these bills. I mean I think there was convincing of the charmed life that was happening. But I think both women write about how it was very stifling and they realized quickly that like it was not what they were doing.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that I think that's what their memoirs are also an attempt at being like. Why did I stay there? Why did I stay there? Why didn't I get out? Why didn't I see these red flags? Why, why, why?
Speaker 2:So I think we should also note two things. One is, both girls became suicidal, so depressed at the mansion that both of them were on medication for the depression, and they both were suicidal at one point, crystal even to the point where she had Lyme disease. She was very sick and she felt I'm okay with death, I've lived a lot of life. So, yes, things were not good and it was at least subconsciously harming them, I think there's a lot of cognitive dissonance happening.
Speaker 1:Good, and it was at least subconsciously harming them.
Speaker 2:I think there's a lot of cognitive dissonance happening. Two Crystal ends up. So she's with Huff for a total of nine years, I believe, married to him. For at least five of those she walked away with a $5 million home and $7 million cash as well as then you know what they were paid weekly in their quote unquote allowance.
Speaker 1:But I don't think a million dollars a year plus all your living expenses, food, clothes et cetera is too bad of a deal Because she saw it through, though, and he tries to bribe Holly to stay by showing her his will, by leaving out his will.
Speaker 2:And he only offers her, I think, three million.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was either three or five, whatever, but it was less than Crystal walked.
Speaker 1:Crystal, I think you are representing the part of their brain that is convincing them that their situation isn't that bad. You are the part of the brain that's but you're getting money, you're getting taken care of. Look at all these perks. Well, it's a choice.
Speaker 2:It's a choice and especially as and Crystal is good about saying it was a job, that's how she viewed it, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but Holly doesn't. Holly convinces herself that it's love is the way that I walked away from her memoir.
Speaker 2:Maybe, and Holly, you know, holly does leave on her own accord before the show is over, before all this, and I definitely respect that. Ok, so Crystal has moved.
Speaker 1:She's moved in and she feels like this is going to be something that very quickly she realizes it isn't. She thinks she and Hefner are going to have this intimate relationship and she writes about how she told him that her father died and all he said was oh, that's sad. And then she later learned you do not bring up death around, hugh Hefner, especially at this age. That was not something you did, and she writes it quickly became clear that I was only to smile and nod and laugh at the appropriate times. So I did. We learned about the curfew, holly. It's nine o'clock in her memoir. By Crystal's memoir it's six o'clock, so he's tightening the leashes.
Speaker 2:Oh, I thought she also said nine.
Speaker 1:I have written down. I always had to be home by six o'clock and the staff would be frantically calling my phone at 601. Maybe just for her phone at 601, maybe just for her. And she writes here I am, I am home, I followed the rules, I'm a good girl. She also talks about the allowance and she writes playing the role of someone else's image of you every day and every night is exhausting physically, mentally and in a way that feels like your soul is actually tired, like some kind of energy battery is running low, and so, again, I think it's really easy for you and I to be on the outside and being like hello, why didn't you guys just leave?
Speaker 1:Clearly you're not happy. Clearly you feel like shit physically, emotionally, mentally. Yes, you're making money, but my takeaway from both of their memoirs, but specifically Crystal's, is it wasn't that simple. She acknowledges now yes, I stayed, and I don't know why I stayed and then I left and then I went back. I convinced myself that it was this thing and it just it's like Stockholm syndrome, brett. This is my biggest takeaway is this was Stockholm syndrome. These women fell in love with their captor.
Speaker 2:Okay, maybe a little some symptoms of Stockholm syndrome, but we have to remember they were actually not captive. It very much was a choice. Just like we know Holly left, it was a choice they could leave the twins left.
Speaker 1:I mean Crystal left.
Speaker 2:The twins were pushed out. Yeah, yeah, and rightfully so, but Crystal left and chose to come back. But they were getting paid and they did have a place to live.
Speaker 1:I know, but they were so broken down and they write that Holly writes. I didn't think anybody else would want me after this. That's a valid concern. Yes, fine, they can leave. They could walk out the door, but then where do they go? They get a job like the rest of us. But Holly even brings that up. She's like what was I supposed to do? Return to my small town and be a waitress and have everybody laugh at me, you know.
Speaker 2:You know. But yes, these are real advantages and disadvantages and I think they are wise and self-aware for noting that. Okay, now that I've done this, is this going to be a scarlet letter? Some people, yes. Would my you know longtime boyfriends be with me if I divulged at any point that I had been one of Hugh Hefner's girlfriends and had sex with him essentially for money or believed I loved him? No, I think he would run the other direction because that is not his thing.
Speaker 2:And I think that is valid, and I think that they would be fooling themselves if they didn't think that would be something that would come up for a future partner, sure.
Speaker 1:I think that they both recognize that. I just think that the degree something that would come up for a future partner Sure, I think that they both recognize that. I just think that the degree to which they were eroded their self-worth and their confidence and made to really believe that Hugh Hefner was the only man who would ever love them and take care of them, did either of them say that? Holly literally writes the phrase eroded my confidence? And I think they both allude to Alex.
Speaker 2:neither of them ever believed that Hugh Hefner loved them. They never believed that and therefore they certainly did not believe he was going to be the only man that would love them, because he didn't believe they loved them in the first place.
Speaker 1:But Holly does bring that up because she's like who she? I actually wrote it down.
Speaker 2:She literally says he does say I love you to them, but I remember them noting that he just says this we don't actually think he loves us. They also both agreed that he's narcissistic and probably doesn't have a capacity for true love.
Speaker 1:Yes, I agree with that too. They definitely said that I do. Where is it I did write it down somewhere that Holly says that, basically, like you just said, who would take her? After that she actually uses the phrase scarlet letter, which I think is really interesting, and in both of their cases, this is why I think we can infer this. The only reason they actually really do leave is Holly has Criss Angel, who says I love you and I want to take care of you, and Crystal has Jordan. Dr Phil's son I don't remember his last name is McGraw McGraw, so it wasn't them just on their own being like I deserve better. Yes, holly, I think a real big nail in the coffin of her and Hef's relationship was when Hef called her the C word, but I'm sorry, they both left and ran straight into the arms of another man, so it was.
Speaker 2:Yes, but I think that was a product of personality quirks and their sense of self and worth, which had been eroded because of Hugh Hefner. It had been further eroded. But the quote that Holly uses from Alice in Wonderland. They wouldn't have been there in the first place were they not already damaged individuals with questionable self-worth.
Speaker 1:This is crystals are telling you why she's so broken and has such little self-worth. Holly, I don't think, went there as much as Crystal did.
Speaker 2:Yes, I just think I think where you and I's opinions and analysis of this differ is that they were so manipulated into staying that they had Stockholm syndrome and couldn't leave, whereas I say, maybe there were some symptoms of Stockholm syndrome and, yes, they were manipulated, but they were free to leave. They had a choice, which they both exercised at some point, you know, to leave. So, yes, it was a bad situation. I think Hugh Hefner is evil practically, but I don't think they were 100% victims. I think they made the decision to be there.
Speaker 1:I think they would agree with you, because that's what these memoirs are. I think is their attempt at accountability and explanation Right.
Speaker 2:Which I understand.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I understand, but you've never been so into a situation where even though you know that it's not what you should be doing even in a low stakes obviously, because none of us will ever know what it's like to be inside of this situation but you've never felt like you were so hot committed to something that you knew that you should probably try to see your way out, but you still didn't feel like you could.
Speaker 2:Yes, and no, I mean to some extent that was working in Hollywood. You know you're paid very little, You're treated like absolute shit, you're completely taken advantage of, you're manipulated and slightly brainwashed and then you are like, well, what job am I gonna get from here if no one, you know, kind of teased me up for it? But yeah, and eventually many of us do leave and move on. So yes, I have been in that situation and yes, I realize, you know, it is employment at will on both sides and I, you know I don't see myself as a victim of it. I don't know that these girls do either, I don't know. I guess I'm just trying to make sure you don't.
Speaker 1:I don't. I think I have, I think maybe I just have a little. I think I'm a very empathetic person, so maybe I have a little bit more empathy, whereas I think you come from things from a very more pragmatic, logical way, which I think is why our discussions are so dynamic, why our discussions are so dynamic.
Speaker 2:I'm a judgmental person, but also my mind can be changed.
Speaker 1:That's what I love about our discussions too. I think we respect each other enough to also encourage not arguments but discussions between each other. I mean, we completely nixed an episode because you did not like the author and you brought up so many great points to where I second guessed whether I truly believed.
Speaker 2:Well, that's not why we nixed the episode.
Speaker 1:No, it is because, at the end of the day, my podcast is about hopefully, I do want it to be more inspiring stories. So if there's a woman who doesn't inspire us, or at least we can talk about empowering moments in her life or a way that we can learn from her message which, after talking to you about this previous author, which we won't name, I came to the conclusion that it didn't fit that brand, and that's because you brought up some really great points. You know, I think I just feel so. I just I, you know I read these memoirs and I just I. Maybe I see myself and I just want to save them in a way. And you're right, they're not asking to be saved. I don't think either of these women view themselves as victims. I think they've been victimized, they've overcome this particular challenge. They're still working through some shit, definitely, as we're all continuing to work through shit, but they don't live in the victimhood mentality which I think is I don't think you should, yeah, I don't think you can and survive your life, yeah.
Speaker 2:I hope not. It was a decision to live in the Playboy Mansion and decide, you know, at least at certain points in their stay there, that perhaps the good outweighed the bad. So that's just why I say, well, let's talk about what that good was, right. The good was the roof over their head, the leisurely lifestyle, the weekly money, the feeling of safety, yeah yeah. And that there was also bad, which is easy to see, you know, and which we'll spend more time discussing, of course, because I think what the pattern has been especially specific to the Playboy Mansion was that the bad was not recognized and talked about enough. So that's why these books and this podcast discussion is going to bring more light to that. I'm just saying that there was good. They were not captive. Despite it being made difficult for them to leave, both emotionally and sometimes physically, as Crystal does tell us, she kind of left under, she escaped. She escaped, yeah, but it was still a decision. She still was not going to be held there against that decision.
Speaker 1:These women were not locked into their rooms at night, but, yes, they were given chains. They also had the key, but they didn't want to use the key, maybe.
Speaker 2:But isn't that all work? You know, work is a four letter word. You know, I would venture to say that many people feel like they would like to leave their jobs and, for whatever reason, can't or decide that, even at the height of it sucking. You know that the good of having income outweighs the bad of the job. So this was a job and I think, at different times during those days, there were different perks, different levels of good. You know, I think the scales of good outweighing the bad tipped daily and at different times throughout the day even.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think. I just also don't want to shy away from the fact that I do think, hugh.
Speaker 2:Hefner was verbally abusive to the women. He was verbally abusive. He was emotionally abusive.
Speaker 1:So I think that it does get tricky when you start talking about abusive relationships too, because we could very easily say, well, women should leave their abusive relationships. But it's not that simple.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:That's just also where it's kind of like, yeah, we can talk about the parties and the money and the fame and the you know celebrity, but they were in abusive relationships. It was an abusive relationship, it was a very manipulated relationship and here are some examples of that, because I do think that's a really interesting point that you said right that while we are highlighting the bad, because nobody talked about the bad, dark side of the mansion really until recently and with the me too movement, and that was what was such the nature of the bombshells yeah, yeah, exactly. But you're right, it's a disservice to them because it almost it makes them seem dumb for us not to acknowledge the fact that there were some good parts of this life, like it wasn't just so. And when I say stockholm syndrome, I don't mean actual Stockholm Syndrome, just Stockholm Syndrome adjacent. I do think that there was a little bit of that, yeah, the symptoms of it, because both girls did like.
Speaker 1:Holly talked about parroting it a lot in the marketing you know world when it came to Playboy, about how she loved Hef. But I think she kind of convinced herself too. I think in the book she acknowledges that like that was a very muddy gray area, and Crystal too. She writes many times about how she thought Hef was a good guy and then she turned around and tell you something terrible that he did for her. And, yes, both things can be true. Good people can say horrible things, I guess but I think there was some convincing going on in their minds to to make it okay for them to be able to stay.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that was a product of the fact that everyone can acknowledge that it was transactional. However, it was not transparent and clear and fully agreed on by both parties. It was very opaque. So they would get this weekly allowance but it was never said that you are getting this money because we are having sex every night and because you live here. It was not transparent at all. So therefore, they would have this inner conflict about well, am I a sex worker? Am I getting paid to be in this relationship? Am I getting paid to have the sex every night? What exactly are the requirements for me to stay here to get the money.
Speaker 1:What's expected of me? And then also they were given money and Holly and Crystal both talk about squirreling some away. They use the word squirreling, okay. So they couldn't just be very obvious about putting this money away in bank accounts, but they were expected to turn around and use this money on not necessarily the salon, because Hef had an open tab at a salon, but like outfits, accessories, things for them to wear that pleased Hugh Hefner. That's kind of what this money was for. It wasn't for them to stock up and be able to escape on one day, which is why it was such a minimal amount. He wanted them to want to be a part of this elaborate lifestyle.
Speaker 2:And he weeded out the girls that would advocate for themselves. And I think that is also so glaringly obvious and a major point of the Girls Next Door television show and the fact that Hugh Hefner was contracted for $400,000 per episode and the girls who are the stars of the show had zero, zero dollars per episode Zero dollars, y'all Like that is illegal.
Speaker 2:It's illegal and let's spend a second on this. So, coming from a background where I know about talent deals, television shows etc. Any talent on a program is supposed to be supplied with their own attorney who will advocate for them in the deal-making process and ensure that it is to their standard and, of course, try to achieve the best pay for them. So I found it shocking that none of these girls.
Speaker 1:Well, I have to cut in, though, because you dealing with talent, and this is why recently, in the past few years, we've seen these reality stars try to unionize. But that is because actors and actresses are a part of a union SAG-AFTRA which shout out to them. They work very hard to secure our rights and get good paydays for us, and reality TV stars are not a part of any sort of union that protects them, so they really are just left to fend for themselves, and that's why yeah, right.
Speaker 2:And TV shows and still to this day will kind of avoid acknowledging those who appear on screen as talent. So say in dating shows that we see they are asked to sign a packet full of paperwork that notes you know you're not being paid for this, etc. Pleased to just have the platform where they could be seen or move on and the exposure and the note on their professional resume that they will do it for free. But also that's maybe when it's unclear how many episodes they will be on if this will be a continued thing.
Speaker 1:They don't know to what extent they'll be taken advantage of. Yeah, and Crystal writes that it didn't even occur to her to think that this wasn't fair because, like you said, they've been given money. She has free room and board. Holly writes in her memoir that when she and Kendra and Bridget tried to bring up to the producers hey, we're not getting paid for any of these episodes the producer literally looks them dead in the eye and is you are replaceable. This isn't about you. This is about Hugh Hefner's life and his girlfriends. Well, when the show comes out, guess who?
Speaker 2:everybody fell in love with Kendra, bridget and Holly, and that's why I want to just, you know, smack these girls on the side of their head and say look, fool me once. First season. I totally understand accepting and being told you get zero. You should be so lucky as to appear on it by second season. And once the first season has aired and there's popularity and it's clear oh, we are the majority of this show, were none of you smart enough or advocating for yourselves at all, enough to say I think Hugh Hefner does a lot less work for $400,000 and we should get something.
Speaker 1:This is where the power struggle comes into play, but making a call.
Speaker 2:making a call calling a talent agency, calling looking up you know a number of an entertainment law firm giving a call and saying, hey, I've been appearing on this show. I think it's going to be a second season. You may have even heard of it, you may have even heard of my name. I'm interested in just even having a consultation to see whether perhaps I would enlist your services or what you think I should do representing myself. No one thought over the course of many years that phone call.
Speaker 1:Well, remember when they were basically forced to sign the contract for their last season Holly writes about it that they were basically brought in and said you need to sign this contract, that Hef owned them. And Holly looks at it, bridget looks at it and they're both like we want our lawyers to look at this. And they said you have to sign it now or you're not going to be a part of the next season.
Speaker 2:Great. Tell them just as other professionals do. Ok, go ahead and shoot without me. I guess maybe I'll have to come in later episodes.
Speaker 1:But they weren't professionals. This was early on in the world of reality television. They didn't have agents and managers representing them getting them these opportunities. This opportunity came to them, they were told Make a phone call and ask. They were conditioned to believe that they had very little power in the situation.
Speaker 2:But even by the time they knew they did have power, when they started being very popular, they were on billboards.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but Holly writes about being taken advantage of that. This thing that she designed ended up on a Playboy model and she got no credit and they were just completely treated like replaceable objects and that's how they were made to feel.
Speaker 2:And the people in power and behind the show, whether it was Hef, the producers I don't recall which production company Well, it was with E, the network, and I know it was on E. Exactly that's what I was going to say. They all know better. So absolutely shame on them. And to just continue taking advantage of these girls.
Speaker 1:They were taking advantage of the naivete, yes, but as we all know, in Hollywood it's a numbers game and it's a bottom line, and if they can get away with not paying these women, they're going to get away with not paying this. Nobody's going to come to them and be like hey, just so you know, maybe you should ask for some money because you're popular. How could they?
Speaker 2:not realize after first season I should be getting paid for this?
Speaker 1:Because Hef made them feel so shitty about themselves. Brett, this is what I'm saying.
Speaker 2:But two things can be true. Hef can be manipulating them, making them feel bad. They can be in a tough situation, but they can also be dumb at times. It's not their fault for making bad decisions. I understand the reasoning, but they made dumb decisions?
Speaker 1:Sure, because they didn't know any better, which is why, when you go to Hollywood, you have representation to tell you when you don't know better and they didn't have that, that was kept from them. But it's common sense, was it though? Reality television was brand new and they were told they were replaceable if they spoke up. So why would you speak up?
Speaker 2:I'm going to stand by that Some of it's common sense, knowing that if I'm an integral part of a very popular TV show, I should be getting paid to be on it.
Speaker 1:I think they were conditioned to believe they were not an integral part of the TV show. So then what? And that's maybe that's where we differ Call their bluff, call the bluff. Interesting that would have been. See, that would have been fun, ok.
Speaker 1:So when it gets to Crystal's turn to be a part of Girls Next Door, she writes about how, before they'd film, hef would remind her and the twins to always be loving toward him on camera.
Speaker 1:And we all know that Hugh Hefner was a misogynistic sleazeball and we learned just how gross he and the people he surrounded himself and invited into the mansion were. I love that Crystal airs a lot of his dirty laundry. She writes about how Hef would have these disposable cameras and would encourage girls to pose for him. She writes he wanted us to flash the camera, pull up our skirts, spread our legs, show everything A lot of girls did, and I watched as those cameras filled up with the most incriminating images, roles and roles of potential blackmail. Crystal also writes that hef admitted to filming women for years without their permission but later destroyed them after the quote pam and tommy thing. And then later in the memoir she writes about how hef and his friends would sit around and dissect the women and the latest issues of playboy. They discussed the merits of each body part of the women featured.
Speaker 2:so pretty fucking gross so it's gross behavior, and I think all of this also speaks to the plethora of examples where hef did not care about these women.
Speaker 1:So we should not be feeling bad for hef ever in any way and there were times where in both of their memoirs they were like I felt so bad for hef and I was like no honey, no, yeah, no.
Speaker 2:He didn't care about them. And then, just as another example, thrown in, the baby oil.
Speaker 2:The girls were telling him baby oil is not a safe lubricant. It is giving us infections. We are having issues with this. Please use a water-based lubricant. And he didn't care. He kept forcing the baby oil on him, would switch it out, even sometimes when they weren't looking. He did not care that it was unhealthy, that it was causing them physical pain and that this is just widely. You know numerous articles and any talk to any doctor would say no, baby oil is not a safe sex lubricant. That's why Crystal starts having anal sex instead. Yes, I found that to be a really noteworthy anecdote that she said. You know, I resorted to anal sex because of the infections and baby oil, yeah.
Speaker 1:And I don't want to imagine that. It was a well-known secret that a lot of these girls had boyfriends on the side, and this was more in Holly's book than in Crystal's. So like herpes would go around because there is no protected sex happening in the mansion Hef did not wear a condom.
Speaker 2:Let's take a moment to talk about how jumping from anal to vaginal sex is ripe ground for infection, and especially with differing partners. There were countless accounts of chlamydia, syphilis, gonorrhea lots of things that go around the mansion, and he doesn't care?
Speaker 1:no, he doesn't. Also, hef was addicted to opioids and this was a well-known secret in the house that no one talked about. Some more tea that crystal gives us. She writes about how she starts to have panic attacks. They first started after greg's death and then they grew more frequent, but they do lessen because, like you you've mentioned before, when she starts to realize that this is not a relationship but it's a job, that kind of lessens her sense of panic and she realizes okay, I just have to perform my job, and so she does. She becomes the main girlfriend.
Speaker 1:But this isn't a relief for her as much as she had hoped, because now she's just worried that she'll be replaced by another woman with quote the launder hair, better breasts and a better nose. She starts getting work done. She gets her breasts redone by Hefskai. She had first gotten her boob augmentation breast augmentation at the suggestion of her mother in college and that initial surgeon didn't even ask Crystal what size she wanted, but just gave her what he deemed best, which I thought that was disgusting. And then she ends up getting them redone and she gets a nose job and liposuction simultaneously. Crystal regrets all of it and I don't shame any women who get anything done. But Crystal regrets it, writing years later I would regret all of this. The surgery, the liposuction Turns out I needed the fat, the implants, but at that time I had no idea how ill it would make me, that my body would reject the mold I was forcing it into.
Speaker 1:She writes about how she does what the twins did to her, selecting more women to join them for these sex encounters, because she did not want to have sex with Hef all alone. But all the attention that Hef gets it just makes her cling tighter to him. She writes about how she starts to feel something new though Anger, rebellion and boredom, because everything is work. She writes the Playboy Mansion had a reputation, a legacy, is one of the first sex-positive, liberated places. Hef was the poster boy for sexual liberation.
Speaker 1:I never felt very liberated in his bedroom. He always framed it as a choice. But of course he reminded you that the opportunity was in the staying. But the longer you stayed, the more hoops you had to jump through and the more you were programmed to believe that you would be nothing if you left. It was an invisible trap framed by the language of choice there you go, there you go, brett, from the word of the babe herself. That's where you know. That's why I was kind of defending them a little bit more. Okay, so Hef proposes to her, kind of he just gives her a box with a ring.
Speaker 2:She writes, hef, and frankly, with the Playboy Corporation, so yeah, the consent to marriage and the explicit question didn't exist, you'll marry me.
Speaker 1:So again, we've talked about how, as outsiders, it is hard to justify their reasoning for staying and the choices that they've made. Like you said, you just want to smack them and you just want to shake them and be like why did you do this? And I was definitely bummed out every time that I did read an instance where one of them would feel the need to defend Hef or justify his behavior. And she writes that she understood that Hef carried a lot of childhood wounds and never felt loved and probably didn't even know how to love. She writes I didn't know whether to be sad for Hef or angry.
Speaker 1:He was so desperate for love and adoration, but he had no clue how to give it to anyone else. All he knew how to do was manipulate and leverage his power. I felt like a pawn. What did he even want me for? Why was this ring on my finger? I felt like an object in this house, a thing like a carved statue or a painting hanging on the wall, something to be used, looked at, enjoyed. When would I get to be a person? And it makes sense to me that, if you do integrate this other person into your life for so long and a part of, I think, trying to understand your own decisions and make peace with it or whatever, is you have to humanize the monster in a way. I don't think that they are stupid or whatever for trying to justify hef's actions in their mind.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's like worth their effort to try to be like oh well this is why hef is the way that he is, you know, for the constant attention and admiration was also a product of this Hollywood machine. That happens, you know. These people get put on pedestals and given so much power and they become completely addicted to it and then that becomes the standard level of expectation, right? They're constantly looking to exceed that level while continuing to raise the bar of how celebrated they are and how powerful they are and how they're treated. He was in this position for so long that he continued trying to raise that bar and these girls would acquiesce to it If somebody didn't.
Speaker 1:there was just another woman waiting to come in to the cage.
Speaker 2:Yes, and, like I said, with his recruitment and targeting of these girls, with his recruitment and targeting of these girls he looked for ones that would be quiet and malleable to him and would not advocate for themselves. And I'm sure he didn't know that they probably all had histories of sexual trauma, but I would not be surprised if all of them did, and that was just because he didn't care. He didn't want to hear about their histories, he didn't want to hear about their traumas, he did not care. Hundred percent.
Speaker 1:Did he even see them as human? I honestly I wonder. No, I don't think so Did he see them as human, just sex objects, just candy, arm candy and definitely saw them as staff but, you know, didn't even treat them.
Speaker 2:you know as well as he treated some of his staff. Yeah, Okay.
Speaker 1:So everything is closing in on Crystal and she decides it's time to bolt. First she tries to leave in the heat of the moment. She's pissed that she's getting paid pennies compared to Hef for their wedding special, among other things, as she's running out over the loudspeaker, hef yells, detain her, which is what you kind of alluded to earlier, where it does get a little physical. So she doesn't leave at that moment and she gets smart and she starts making a plan. She's feeling unsure about what to do with her life when she leaves, though At this point she's DJing a little bit here and there. But like Holly she's like who am I outside of this mansion? What opportunities are there for me? Who will take me seriously? She meets Jordan McGraw, dr Phil's son, like I said, and he tells her to talk to his dad, who tells Crystal that she's young and vibrant and shouldn't be trapped in that house.
Speaker 1:Crystal writes I didn't consider that the father and the son who were encouraging me to leave, to get out now, might have had an ulterior motive. Even with the blackmail, with the backstabbing at the mansion, with how many of my relationships had become transactional by nature, I was still someone who trusted first and asked questions later, I was still me. Well, as we can all guess, she ends up running away and moves straight in with Jordan. She writes if little alarm bells were going off in the back of my mind, I ignored them. The looming wedding bells I needed to escape were louder. And follows it up with Jordan and his dad. Made me feel empowered enough to leave Hef, but I quickly gave my power back again. I had sworn I would stay sober from depending on a man, but I relapsed at the first empty closet I saw Hef lets her go away, but she has your damage control. And she writes that just because I couldn't marry him didn't mean I wanted anything bad to happen to him. I still had a heart. Or maybe I had been trained and conditioned to care about his happiness, all right. So, like I said, doesn't work out with Jordan. Among other things, he seems a little too close to his mother, which I thought was really funny that she brings that up and she starts to feel invisible. She's missing the life, the attention and the security that she had at the mansion. She writes.
Speaker 1:So in my head I began to rewrite history. Life at the mansion hadn't been so bad. They had never really aggressively prevented me from leaving. I had it pretty good there. Curfews were safer, because nothing really good happens after 9.30 pm. That's true. Why did I want to escape? What was I thinking? All right, so it is so interesting that she says nine o'clock here, because I have the book open to the prologue where she does say six o'clock, so it must have changed at a certain point for her, which is crazy. Mary, hef's longtime secretary calls her and says that Hef genuinely misses her, and Crystal goes back to Hef. She tells herself that maybe it'll be better this time, writing because now Hef was afraid of me leaving and that little power was power enough. And things are different. There is a slight shift of power. They get married mostly because a part of her power wasn't afraid of getting kicked out and he knew it. She writes he was a man. No woman would ever leave. And because I did, he respected me and Hef never had respected women.
Speaker 2:No, I don't think he respected her.
Speaker 1:I don't think he respected that she left. I think he just wanted her back. Yeah, I agree with you. I think it was more of a conquest and like a victory. But he's also aging at this point too, so I imagine, like you said, the sex stops. There's probably a little less fight in him. He's addicted to opioids. Is it a shift in power, or has Hugh Hefner just finally gotten hella old? You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I mean, I thought, and I he definitely didn't become more generous at any point. You know, I hated the part where she talks about he would, you know, grow tired of cars or want the new model, and so he would donate cars to charity, surely for the tax write-off. But so she would ask well, what if my mom bought it off you? Or what if we gave it to my mom? That's also still a write-off, by the way. And he said no, and was like I'm not here to take care of you and your family. And it's like, well, you're my fucking husband, so is that really such a bizarre idea?
Speaker 1:No, totally, I was just so disgusted. I know, because if he had respected her, you're right, that would have been a very different conversation, and cared about her family, yeah To some extent, it sounds like her mom was pretty easygoing about all this, for when she met him. She would come to the mansion often and hang out yeah.
Speaker 2:She would come to the mansion often and hang out.
Speaker 1:He was not in conflict with Hef, was not judgmental or adversarial to him in any way, as, let's be honest, a lot of mother-in-laws are. She was what like 20, 30 years younger than him, right? So I?
Speaker 2:just thought it was so abhorrent that he couldn't even you know give a car.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I think he's so gross. I think in so many ways. I think it's gross that you know he sold the mansion, didn't have the money to keep it up, was paying rent to whatever corporation owned it, on each room, by the way. I thought that was really interesting.
Speaker 1:And we learned that in Holly's memoir yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the rooms that went unoccupied, you know, had the zero dollar rent fee.
Speaker 1:Which was strange to me, because I've never heard of a house where it's like by room, rented by the room Right.
Speaker 2:And knowing that you know the whole house is deteriorating and disintegrating before their eyes and it's going to all have to be ripped out. You know it's not. Oh, we do this because the reasoning is we're in terror on one room. It's no, you're going to need to rip this house down.
Speaker 1:She didn't elaborate on that which we're about to get to. Her health starts deteriorating. She's diagnosed with Lyme disease, and then they dig deeper and her implants are like attacking her body, her immune system, and then they find black mold, which you had talked about earlier, but then she doesn't say how, like they remediated it or anything.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and she just continues to live there. And at that point I would think the following you know she's already married, she's got some type of prenup, she's kind of you know, maybe it says zero, maybe she gets zero in it and the money that she did get was just a little goodwill on Hef's part, you know, an amendment to his will. But at that point she's married, she may have some claim to some payout and her health is severely at risk. You know she's dying. I would not live in a place that had black mold.
Speaker 1:No one should be living in a place with black mold. That is not good for you. Right, you could be condemned.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I found that bizarre and yet another questionable decision. Just how literally, figuratively, metaphorically, all of it. How disgusting Hugh Hefner and the Playboy Mansion is.
Speaker 1:Completely agree. But she does. Her health does rebound. She, you know, starts getting IVs and getting on medicine and I'm guessing that they got rid of the black mold I'm just guessing that they did and she takes care of Hef until he dies. She finds the boxes of blackmail photos and she destroys them, which I did love that part. She writes that she was his caregiver in every way, guardian of his health, his image, his legacy. She writes this I was never in love with Hef, but I loved this old man in the ways you are supposed to love your elders, in the ways you are supposed to love someone who is nearing the end of a long and complicated life, the ways you are supposed to love someone who is nearing the end of a long and complicated life.
Speaker 1:Yes, I had been programmed to believe I would be nothing without him. So if I pause during those last two years to reflect, I may have seen my mounting panic at what I would do and who I would be when he was gone, but I didn't stop to consider all the ways I had volunteered for my own captivity, all the ways I had walked into a life that was so stifling of who I was inside. We all make trade-offs, compromises, and we settle for less than we might need or want or even deserve when it comes to relationships. My entire 20s were spent under the control of a person, an institution and a myth that was so much bigger than I had it in me to push against.
Speaker 1:Crystal Harris didn't know how to stand up for herself, and Crystal Hefner didn't know herself well enough to know what she really wanted or needed to fight for.
Speaker 1:So he had told Christopher, before he dies, that he wanted her to be on the board of his foundation when he passed. And he told her I want to remind you to only say good things about me and when it came to burial instructions, she writes all he cared about was that he ended up in the slot he bought right next to Marilyn Monroe's. She was the first person to grace the cover of Playboy and to appear nude inside its pages. He put her in there without her permission, after buying the photos from a calendar company. She never got a dime and she certainly didn't have any say in whose bones would be lying next to hers for eternity. So and I had mentioned that in a previous episode because I learned it in this memoir but fucking A. He literally fucking started the company by taking advantage of one of the most iconic beautiful, broken women, and that set the standard for the rest of the machine. And now he's next to her.
Speaker 1:I am so furious like I am just infuriated on marilyn monroe's part and for all fucking women taken advantage by this man and manipulated by this man, he gets to lay next to marilyn monroe for the rest of eternity.
Speaker 2:I hate it oh for marilyn, thanks, I hate it.
Speaker 1:Thanks, I hate it. She writes about the response from the media after Hef dies and how so many of them are just praising him and calling him this pioneer for women's rights and sexual liberation. And she is taken aback at the president of GLAAD and her criticizing the media for their praise of Hefner. And she doesn't name her, but I will. Her name is Sarah Kate Ellis. She tweets this it's alarming how media is attempting to paint Hugh Hefner as a pioneer or social justice activist, because nothing could be further from reality. Hefner was not a visionary. He was a misogynist who built an empire on sexualizing women and mainstreaming stereotypes that caused irreparable damage to women's rights and our entire culture. Amen, sarah Kate Ellis.
Speaker 1:And Crystal writes I read her last sentence over and over again she had said the secret thing out loud and I was shocked Fuck, all of this. This is what was really happening and that, along with the Me Too movement, finally gave women permission in Hef's life to come forward with how it really was. This is where I wish she would have given Holly some credit, because Holly wrote her memoir and laid out some dirty laundry when Hugh Hefner was still alive. But I don't think Crystal was ready to accept that or could face that at this point. You know she had already made her bed and she was lying in it, and sometimes we're not ready to face the truth because then we have to do something about it. Once you know better, you have to do better. So you just keep yourself from knowing better. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:So the dynamic between Holly and Crystal is something worth talking about and it's also interesting where this is. Where their two books slightly differ is how they account for their interactions with one another and their opinions of one another, et cetera. So Holly mentions Crystal many times actually more times than I could count in her book, and Holly's book was written, like you said, while Hef was alive and while Crystal was married to him. Holly is mentioned in Crystal's book but Crystal kind of takes the approach, never really interacted with her. The press built up this artificial beef between us that didn't exist and kind of writes it off. Also, crystal does not mention that Holly wrote a book Crystal was in it which brings a shred of doubt to the authenticity of Crystal's book because, let's be honest, we both know that Crystal read that book.
Speaker 1:I know, but can she? Okay, well, here's my thing, and this is just me playing devil's advocate, because I think it would be very hard for me not to read that book. But I could imagine that it was completely banned from the premises of the mansion. And, yes, we all know there are ways to read things. Like I said, she's living in a glass house. She does not want the stones thrown at her glass house At this point. She's fucking pocketed. She's already come back, tail between her legs. Basically, come back to her guy, to. Hugh Hefner has decided to live out the rest of her life. At some point she does get really ill herself. I could very much imagine her not wanting to read it because she doesn't want to acknowledge the validation of her truth until she's ready to face them and accept them herself.
Speaker 2:No, I have zero doubt that Crystal read the book, possibly even before publication, if not immediately after. But what I think, which who cares? Great, I'm just sure she did. But the fact that I'm saying in this, in Crystal's memoir, that she's written years and years after Hef's death, that she doesn't even bring this up she brings up Holly sometimes, but she doesn't bring up that Holly wrote a book and that she is in it. I find that to be glaringly absent.
Speaker 1:Especially because Holly does corroborate Hugh Hefner's manipulation and tactics, and even just for but also, then it's well. Would she have to have brought up Kendra's book and Isabella St James's book? Why not? Because this is her story, maybe, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think her feelings on those books would be very interesting and are very relevant.
Speaker 1:Well, we also know that Hugh Hefner was very good at pitting the women against each other, so who knows what was also being said behind closed?
Speaker 1:doors about Holly to her and, like I said, I do wish that she had at the very least acknowledged that Holly had been really brave to write this memoir, do I wish that she had maybe dug in a little bit more. But again, everybody has to also deal with their experiences in their own way, on their own time, and maybe there are some things that both of those women were ready to acknowledge and talk about and maybe there are some things that they are not ready to acknowledge and talk about.
Speaker 2:Sure. So for listeners I would say either one of these books interests you, read them both. They both complete the picture and corroborate each other in many ways. But then there are certain things that are in conflict. You know, in the role of Mary, she's not a very important character here, but there are some things that differ and some things that are similar, and I think that's worth noting and reading, and both of these books are pretty good. So I recommend them as a pair.
Speaker 1:It's interesting. I don't want to say they're fun reads because that feels icky, but they were entertaining reads and I grew to like both of these women a lot more. I honestly didn't really know Crystal, but I always liked Holly. Bridget was my favorite and Girl Next Door and I think I just watched the first couple of seasons and then I didn't really keep up with them or anything. But I appreciated that they both wrote these memoirs.
Speaker 2:I have positive opinions of them both coming out of this. But I just look through everything you know kind of with a critical eye. Don't take a one-sided memoir at face value. I it with a few grains of salt. I think that's what makes discussing worthwhile.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, too, a lot of what the podcast is is bringing our own takeaways and the ways that we either resonate with the women or don't resonate with the women. But also when it's a celebrity memoir, I think it's a little different too, because you do question, okay, why is this being written and what else is there to the story, in a way that, like, maybe you wouldn't if it was just, you know, a non-celebrity person like we also cover, right?
Speaker 2:That some things are also and the timing of them are for cash grabs, and sometimes it's just because this is an interesting story and it has some lessons, and so it was written and it's kind of a no-name person and I think and you know, and you and I have done episodes across that spectrum. Yeah, I think that's also an interesting part of analyzing these. What was about their timing?
Speaker 1:Honestly timing-wise for both of them. I wondered did they not have to sign NDAs? I was honestly shocked after I listened to Holly's what she was able to say and there were no legal repercussions because of Crystal's book where Hugh Hefner is like only say good things about me, only say good things about me. Well, here's Holly not saying good things and he's still alive. How is this permissible?
Speaker 2:That's a really good point. That's a really good point and I'll bet you they did sign NDAs.
Speaker 2:NDAs are notoriously hard to enforce and make punishment for Okay, yeah, I mean also the person blabbing has to, you know, be worked coming after, and there's also a freedom of speech. We could have a whole discussion on that. But, yeah, I'll bet they did have NDAs. But that raises an interesting point to to are there things that they didn't tell us that they really felt? Okay, I'm going to tow that line. Here's what I'm going to say and I'm going to keep such and such back. Yeah, Yep, Totally. Oh. So I think we should all also read both books. With that grain of salt. You got to assume that you're not being told everything, and maybe it was a lot worse. Maybe it was. And I also want to talk about his kids and their absence, their corporate response.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. So Crystal writes about how, at the funeral, she just lost it. She cried for Hef, she cried for Greg, she cried for her dad, she cried for herself. She writes I cried for the girl who had excitedly walked up the mansion steps sure that every beautiful, shiny thing she saw in that house was made of real gold. I was 31 years old and I felt more lost than I'd been before. I walked through the mansion doors at 21.
Speaker 1:I spent 10 years molding myself to fit into the twisted world of a powerful man, and that powerful man was gone and nothing more than ashes in a cold urn. I cried because I had no idea what to do, where to go or how to be. I cried because I had no idea who I was, and this is a recurring thing. She writes this a few times. I didn't know who I was. I didn't know who I was. I didn't know what my next step was.
Speaker 1:She writes about how she really felt, like her only value came from being attractive to men and being desirable to men, and trying to be the most perfect, the skinniest, the blondest, the whatever, most to what a man wanted. She writes I had to be malleable, compliant, I had to let people touch me casually, like I was decor. There was no wiggle room for my own opinion or thoughts, so eventually I trained myself not to have any. There was no wiggle room to say no.
Speaker 1:So again, I think this is why because you know, I just I don't know when you got to read the memoir and I know you kind of re-listened to it, but I just did the outline a few days ago and so all of this was weighing heavily on me. Earlier in our discussion, when we were talking about the choice and how you were like they had a choice and I was like I know, but I feel like they really convinced themselves that they didn't. And it's probably because I was just revisiting all of these quotes where she basically says that and you can either agree with her or not but I do feel like Crystal at least feels like she didn't have a choice, that she just had to basically fit into what Hef wanted her to be and that she truly felt so lost and scared about what that would even look like if she tried to leave the house that that trumped any ambition to leave the house. You know life, any ambition to leave the house.
Speaker 2:You know, life is hard and these situations are hard and there was good and there was bad. And Hef is awful I mean, I'm not vilifying her. There is one villain in these stories and his name is Hugh Hefner. And you know, if we want to bring up more villains, of course there's certain staff members, there's the corporation, there's society. These girls are not villains, but I am saying they had choices and they made them.
Speaker 1:And it's also because so many of them did exercise that choice, they did leave or they were kicked out. I mean, a lot of the girlfriends kind of were kicked out, which is interesting to me, and you wonder how long would they have stayed around and put up with it, telling themselves that the good outweighed the bad.
Speaker 2:Right put up with it, telling themselves that the good outweighed the bad Right. You know, and to that effect I wouldn't want to further take away power from these already unempowered women by trying to say that they didn't have a choice. They did, and you know, and I think in hindsight you know they've grown and they've learned from these things and they're using their stories to empower other women, you know, which is why they even, you know, kind of qualified for the standards that you set for this podcast. But I think, you know, the world is a scary place and Hollywood has a lot of darkness in it, and I think that's what we see in these memoirs.
Speaker 1:A lot of cautionary tales of manipulation. Crystal writes being with him was being in a kind of prison, but it had also been safe. Only say good things. I was good at that, I promised, but that promise was killing me. And so she's now getting into the reasoning why she has decided to finally come forward and write this memoir and not say good things. And she talks about finding this letter as she's cleaning out the house, from a 13-year-old to Hugh Hefner telling him that she wants to be in Playboy and she wants to live in the mansion. And she asks what she needs to do to get there. And Crystal writes you have to lose yourself. You have to give up everything that makes you unique and special. You have to give up your mind and your opinions and any belief in choosing your own future. But mostly you have to get really small. So small you don't leave a trace, so small you don't cast a shadow, so small and so quiet that even if you are screaming you can't hear it.
Speaker 2:And that is why I would have never lasted. I'm loud, I have opinions, I advocate for myself and for others. I question authority, yes, and I think these are things that traditionally, you know, can make women be seen as unpleasant and that, you know, hopefully, in this more modern era, we're learning to cultivate and appreciate and celebrate.
Speaker 1:We need to redefine what it means to be a good girl. Being a good girl does not mean being submissive and malleable and making yourself small and not having an opinion and shutting up. Being a good girl means exactly what you do, which is questioning things and taking up space and not apologizing for taking up space and knowing your worth and your value you know, because that's what her big thing is Only say good things, only be a good girl.
Speaker 2:Right, and that is I think you nailed it on the head of the being a good girl. Yeah, we are taught that like a good girl is traditionally feminine and quiet and malleable and goes with the flow and doesn't question the status quo. And yes, I was. I saw your question in the notes, where you taught to be a good girl a little bit, and perhaps that's why you know my relationship with my dad started deteriorating, because I just inherently did not fit that bill. But also, what's funny is neither did my mom, and he was in love with her. They were high school sweethearts, but my mom's a lot like me, so that's interesting.
Speaker 1:That is interesting Something to think about At the end of the day, after reading all these memoirs and being in therapy myself, sometimes you don't know why you do the things you do, but you still have to move forward. I think it is worth sometimes taking the time, look back, connect the dots, write these cautionary tales, help empower other women, help get your side of the story out when for so long you were silenced. It makes sense to me that she wants to tell her story. She was silenced for so long, but how do you move forward? Because that's what life is about. It's not dwelling in the past, it's moving forward, forgiving yourself for mistakes quote unquote mistakes that you've made, trying to do better, trying to be better and, like we've already said, what we both appreciated about this memoir was that Crystal isn't like and now I'm a super strong person and I found my voice and I'm super confident, I have it all figured out she's like yeah, I'm still a work in progress, I'm still figuring it out, but I think I'm taking the right steps forward. This was one of them. You know, writing this memoir and sharing my story.
Speaker 1:And she writes there's no neat ending to this fairy tale, but that's okay, I'm not looking for fairy tale endings any longer. I am a work in progress, and that's more exciting than scary. Now. I don't have it all figured out, and sometimes you only know who you are by what you are not any longer. I am not someone who needs a man to give her strength. I am not defined by my body or by my looks.
Speaker 1:So, and then she ends it with this, which I loved. The journey to finding myself after leaving the mansion doesn't end, but I'm finally ready to listen to the voice inside me that's been there all along. That voice gets louder every day. So, yes, I used to only say good things, but now I say whatever I want. I just always love when people tie it all back around in the end. So, yeah, I feel like we've sort of talked about this, but there is this sense of men and boys are taught to flaunt and wield their power, and girls are taught to hide it. Find shame in wanting it. We just have to stop propping up douchebags in our society. Seems that simple, but it's not.
Speaker 2:Well, and that's also why education is important, that's why banking is important.
Speaker 1:Thinking is important, that's why sharing these stories is important too, I think, because the more that women realize that we are all in this together, I personally feel, the more we can prop each other up. Which is also why I wanted to do this podcast and it probably is at the core of why I tend to play devil's advocate sometimes is because the world has for so long not believed women, and I agree, I don't think it should just be a blanket thing. I don't think just because you're a woman you should be believed, because that's almost like negating the progress. But my instinct is just man. We've had to deal with so much bullshit. How do we empower one another and inspire one another to be stronger together to change culture for ourselves and for the next generation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, hugh Hefner did not have a great relationship with his kids. We never hear from either of these girls about his children being present ever in their life.
Speaker 1:Holly lived in a room that was for the boys when they were younger, when she first moves into the mansion, and that there were toys everywhere, but the boys never came over, which I thought was just kind of creepy and weird.
Speaker 2:Well, but there was also toys. I mean there was toys in all the rooms. Hugh Hefner's room had a lot of stuffed animals and stuff. So yeah, I don't know if those were the boys' toys or not. You know, we know that not all his children were present at his funeral. The son, who works for the corporation, was present and the only speaking or statement releasing that he did was an incredibly corporate statement. You know, about Hugh Hefner being a visionary Just total bullshit. I mean I'm glad I don't remember it word for word, but you know the kids inherited a good amount of money. At least one of the kids still works for the corporation. I know that there have been, you know, documentaries and stuff kind of outing Hugh Hefner as a misogynist and a predator and that they fought hard against them and they like to pull that card. That's oh, how dare you say anything about our poor dead father? And it's like, okay, you're just protecting your financial interests, your best interests.
Speaker 1:yeah, do you think that Hugh Hefner's reputation has been tarnished? Now two women have come and really written books that have. You know, let some skeletons out of the closet. I haven't read the other two women's books and I'm not planning on it for the show. These documentaries have been made. But overall, does it feel like he's still applauded as this great visionary man who liberated women sexually?
Speaker 2:I don't think so, and I don't know if that's just coming from the perspective of the corner of the world that I'm in.
Speaker 2:You know, I never did applaud him. I think many of us actually always thought that it was kind of gross that he had these young girlfriends and found it to be very odd. And I think many of us you know, even back in the heyday of Girls Next Door would have thoughts like, well, I'd be really embarrassed if that was my dad or grandfather. So I think that it was at least always subconsciously part of our thoughts towards him and that we all kind of made fun of the fact that he was in pajamas and robes 100% of the time, and so so I think that finally we kind of realized that when it's not just like funny, oh, I feel sorry for the embarrassment and how embarrassed he should be of himself, but that it's no, he's a predator, yeah, and that he preyed on young, vulnerable women, targeted them, took advantage of them and later threw them to the curve when he'd use them up yeah, right, and I think that the public knows that.
Speaker 2:But I also think that the documentary that came out about him, I can't believe it was so surprising to so many people and it was such a pivotal moment in the Playboy Corporation Because, like I said, I think subconsciously we all knew that this was kind of dark and gross.
Speaker 1:Maybe as women we knew, but I think a lot of men thought he was a fucking badass, pulling women, 19 year olds hot 19 year olds, well into his 80s. That's the thing. I'm with you because we're women and we were probably like this is weird and gross and strange, and I remember watching girls next door with kind of this fascination, but I always knew that it was not a situation that I would want to find myself in or anyone honestly that I really loved, because it didn't seem like a good situation for the women. But I think guys thought he was badass, not guys that we know and love.
Speaker 2:That's why we know and love them, though yeah yeah, and so I think that this life they lived as a product of entertainment and reality shows is interesting to dissect, and then I think the truth of it is, you know, even more interesting. So I hope there will be no other shows or situations that mimic this, yeah, that become popular and celebrated. I do hope that most of the public shares the opinion with us this was truly dark, and let's just, you know, be really glad that they lived through it and that they have learned and, you know, are coming out and kind of have, at least so far, happy endings.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they've come out on the other side. They're telling their story, they're telling their cautionary tale, and I thoroughly enjoyed reading both of these books and learning more about these women, and I think it was really brave to do what they did and to tell their stories, and I'm here for it. I'm here for women breaking free of the physical, emotional, mental chains that they put themselves in, that they get put in and finding their strength again, and I wish them both. You know, good, happy lives full of people who really love them. We need to, all you know, find the love that we truly deserve, but that does start with loving yourself, and I really feel like this episode is just such a great follow up to the one that we did last month Melissa Petro's Shame on you how to Be a Woman in the Age of Mortification, where my friend Nakia Ann and I talk about what shame is, how it's different than guilt, how it's been built up in our society as a way to subjugate women and keep us quiet and minimalized.
Speaker 1:And also the author, melissa introduces to me this phrase that she borrowed from Brene Brown shame, resilience. And she writes a lot about how to build that shame resilience. Sharing the stories, sharing our truths. Do you have any other? Closing?
Speaker 2:thoughts. I think they're just really beautiful, entertaining women who I hope are valued the way they should be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, brett, thank you so much for joining me today. This was such a good discussion. I feel like I do appreciate when you and I don't see eye to eye, because I think that it causes me to think a little bit differently. Maybe it causes you to think a little differently, who knows? But in today's world, so many of us don't see eye to eye, okay, how do we still have a conversation and a discussion that doesn't turn into? Well, you're dumb because you don't think the way that I do. That doesn't serve anyone, you know Right, and I think it's what makes the discussions worthwhile. There you go, brett. I can't wait to have you on again soon.
Speaker 2:And yeah, don't only say good things. Yeah, tell your truth and put it out there, the good and bad, but the truth does matter. Yeah, thank you. Bye Brett, bye Alex.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to Babes in Bookland. To access the full version of this episode, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or support us on Patreon. Visit babesinbooklandcom for more information.
