Babes in Bookland
A podcast celebrating women's memoirs, one story at a time!
Babes in Bookland
Sorry I'm Late, I Didn't Want to Come: One Introvert's Year of Saying Yes by Jessica Pan
Who could you be if you didn’t label yourself?
Jessica Pan, a self-described shintrovert (that’s shy + introvert) is ready to challenge herself to live like an extrovert for one year and see what positive changes and magical moments she can experience when she steps out of her comfort zone. In this episode, my friend, Misty, and I will discover the importance of mentors, physical ways to combat anxiety, and how getting out of your own way can be the most empowering move of all.
I’m beyond thrilled to start my own journey with you as this podcast grows. We recorded this episode almost six months ago and now it’s finally here. I couldn’t be happier!
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Sorry I'm Late, I Didn't Want to Come by Jessica Pan
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This episode is produced, recorded, and edited by me.
Theme song by Devin Kennedy
Special thanks to my dear friend, Misty. You’ve known me all my life and you still love me and allow me to grow and change. Xx
Sorry I'm Late, I Didn't Want to Come: One Introvert's Year of Saying Yes
by Jessica Pan
ALEX: Hello, everyone, and welcome to the very first episode of Babes in Bookland, a podcast where each episode I discuss a memoir written by a woman with an incredible woman from my own life. I’m your host, Alex Frnka. I am so grateful that you're here as we go on this journey of discoveries and self -discoveries together. I wanted to start off with this book because it's all about saying yes to things that scare you and pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. Today, I am talking about "Sorry I'm Late, I Didn't Want to Come," one introvert's year of saying yes by Jessica Pan. And I'm going to discuss this book with appropriately my very first friend, Misty. So glad you're here!
[INTRO MUSIC PLAYS]
ALEX: Hi Misty!
MISTY: Hi!
ALEX: Thank you so much for joining me today.
MISTY: Thanks for asking me to join you.
ALEX: I know that you didn't get a chance to read this book, but I really, really loved it. Finishing it was kind of like saying goodbye to a friend. I was definitely bummed. She's so funny and her journey is just really encouraging. And it's grounded by this earnest desire to live a fuller life, which is... is definitely one of my main goals. I also really appreciate when someone identifies a problem or something that they'd like to change in their lives, and then they seek out the help and take the necessary steps to do it. I just really found Jessica Pan's book so inspiring, and her overall desire to feel more connected to the world really resonated with me. Are you ready to hear more?
MISTY: Ready. Let's do it.
ALEX: The book came out. out in 2019, and her dedication is this. For Ian, will I need? Let's get into some quick discussion topics. Jess calls herself a Shintrovert, which is a shy introvert. And I wanted to know, I sent you a link to a quiz. So are you an introvert or an extrovert?
MISTY: I'm 100 % an extrovert. I think that that's pretty much it. a given. I've been that way my whole life. Took the quiz and it said, "You're an extrovert."
ALEX: Ah, ding, ding, ding.
MISTY: And it wasn't even an in -between extrovert or anything subcategory. It just said, "As an extrovert, you tend to be outgoing. "You enjoy spending time with other people, "which is really true and feel energized "in social situations. "You definitely don't mind being the center of attention "in social situations." And while some might think you can be too talkative, this generally makes you seem friendly and you find it easy to meet new people and make new friends. Oh, I would say that's pretty spot on for you, though you've never struck me as someone who wanted to be center of attention. You're just that person at a party who's having a good time. Actually, I hate being the center of attention. I hate my birthday. I didn't want to be the center of attention. I didn't like the attention at my Bachelorette party. I wanted all of my friends to have more fun. Same with our wedding. I wanted my friends to be having fun—
ALEX: --which we all did.
MISTY: But yeah, so I think that was actually pretty spot -on as well.
ALEX: Do you think you being an extrovert had anything to do with you being an only child? Like your default was being by yourself. So you sought out the company of others? and that was something that was exciting to you because it felt different. And I think I'm sort of projecting because I was raised an only child and I know that I thrived when I could be around other people.
MISTY: I think maybe my parents just always, if I wanted to do something, it had to be with other kids because I didn't have built in friends at home, right? I always had to put myself out there if I wanted to. to do something with friends, even to this day. If I want to do something, I have no shame in initiating. I'm the over -inviter. I feel physical pain excluding someone and I'm always kind of the initiator when it comes to making plans.
ALEX: Yeah, I think maybe that does have something to do with being an only child. Yeah, and it just makes sense to me and I think it's one of their reasons why you and I connected so quickly at an early age was because we knew what it meant to not have that person that you could be around by default. So we had each other. I have so many wonderful memories of growing up with you. Okay, so are you ready for my quiz results? According to the quiz, I am an ambivert.
MISTY: Are you a little bit of both? It has to be the right time.
ALEX: I'm a little bit of both. That's right, it has to be the right time. I do think when I was younger, I was alone a lot. I craved being around other people. But as I've gotten older, I do wonder if having kids has been a big part of this because I like to be as present as possible with them to lean into the yes, to always try to answer their questions. There's some give and take there, but sometimes it's really messy. emotionally draining to be on for someone. And when you have kids, they live with you 24 /7. So I definitely appreciate my alone time now. Or with my husband. We just can sit next to each other in bed and like be in the same room. Yeah, recharging. The website said, like most people, you fall somewhere in between extroversion and introversion. You like spending time with other people but only if you can balance it with time. to yourself. You're okay with attention on occasion, but probably don't want to be in the spotlight every day. It all depends on the situation.
MISTY: Pretty spot on. I mean, I feel like when we were growing up, you would invite me over for a sleepover. And like Friday and Saturday, you were really into it. And then by Sunday, you're like, okay, bye. Get out of here. Like I'm ready to have my alone time.
ALEX: I'm ready to be by myself. Okay, during her journey, Jessica has to travel to LA for her father's emergency open heart surgery. He makes it out okay. But she talks a lot about his nurse and how his nurse's extraversion was extremely helpful during that really difficult time. She writes that the nurse's warmth, willingness to chat and to be disarmingly open with perfect strangers has made this hellish experience bearable. She has now... seen quote “ firsthand how talking and being open through tense moments can transform them, how the right stranger can be your personal hero.” I loved that quote and I wondered, do you have any good stranger personal hero stories?
MISTY: I recently had to go to the doctor like very regularly for blood work and testing. We were working through some things and I happened to have the same nurse every time that was drawing my blood and she was always singing and remembered me and it really touched me that she remembered me because I think in a time where going to the doctor can be like a conveyor belt situation where they just are moving people through. The fact that they remembered me and tried to comfort me made me feel better about the situation and what was going on.
ALEX: Made you feel important and like you weren't just a number.
MISTY: Yes.
ALEX: But you were a real person.
MISTY: Yes. And I was a person that they were going through this with.
ALEX: That's really lovely. My story involves a nurse, nurses as well. When I was in labor with my daughter, it was a very long labor. Yeah, I ended up having a C -section, but I didn't realize the nurses are the ones that are really in there with you, holding your hand, encouraging you. And the head nurse in the labor and delivery department was in there with me because we were trying to make a vaginal birth work. It's what I wanted my daughter to do. kind of profile. So at a certain point, she just wouldn't fit anymore. And I'm really lucky that it wasn't an emergency situation. I was able to really make the decision myself to have a C -section. I was just so exhausted at that point. And my OBG was like, I don't think it's happening. If you continue to push, she could get stuck. And that would be really, really dangerous. I don't remember her name, but I remember her face. And I remember her looking at me and working with me and being so encouraging to try to help me have the type of birth that I wanted. And in the end, it was okay. My daughter was born healthy. I was okay. That's really the only result that I wanted at the end of the day. But I think nurses are such special people. And when you get one with an incredible bedside manner, most of the time, these people are in our lives and we're going through something difficult. Even a joyous thing like a birth is not a walk in the park by any means. So to have that person there, they don't know you. They've never met you before potentially in your situation at the very first time she had never met you. And I love those small interactions where there's nothing expected after. It's just about that moment being present, being connected with another human being on this planet. And it's really lovely. This whole section really, this quote encourages me to be that positive stranger in other people's lives. No matter what it is, if it's helping somebody at a grocery store or letting somebody go in front of me on the freeway, just be a positive force in other people's lives and not a negative one.
MISTY: Try to do the next right thing. That's kind of something that I have been telling myself is, you know, if you just try to do the next right thing, then you can maybe be that person to someone. You never know. You never know what somebody's going through. Yeah, I mean, you never know. If you let someone in front of you in traffic, they could be having the worst day and then you just let them over in traffic and in Houston. That's a huge deal. (laughs)
ALEX: In LA, it's a huge deal too. Oy, oy. So I really like that though, just try to do the next right thing. That's really beautiful. Okay, so now we're going to dive a little bit deeper into some deeper discussion topics. So this book is all about pushing yourself past your own limitations. Jess writes, "I've been using my introvert label as an excuse to hide from the world." Jessica realizes that she's lonely. She wins this Midnight Oil Award at work for the person who sells their soul for the jobs, basically what her coworkers tell her. And in doing so, she actually feels like a failure. She writes, "Failure because I was so not interested in my job or what I was doing with my life. Failure to be the sort of person I admired." And she continues, "Some people are great at talking to strangers, building new relationships and making friends at parties. I'm really good at other things like loitering, palely in dark places, doorways, disappearing into couch corners, leaving early, feigning sleep on public transportation.” I really wanted to include that because this book really is laugh out loud funny. She is an extremely witty writer. It was one of the reasons why I missed her so much when she was gone. So what do you think sparks change in people?
MISTY: I don't feel that you can spark change in other people. I think that in your own mind and in your own desire, you have to want to change and have something different. You may hit some sort of rock bottom or have an eye -opening experience or a friend may point something out to you that's eye -opening, but the true change is not gonna come unless you want it. Only you can take care of yourself and not create your own happiness, but take care of your own well -being. I mean, you can't expect to be happy all the time, but you need to be self -aware and know yourself well enough to know when you need to calibrate, make a change.
ALEX: Just checking in with yourself and asking yourself, am I doing things that are setting myself up for a better life, for a happier life? the type of life that I want to live? Or am I staying in this cycle of bad habits that isn't going to serve me much longer or isn't serving me right now?
MISTY: Yeah.
ALEX: Okay, so speaking of these awards that she has, do you guys do awards at your job? It reminds me of the dundies from the office.
MISTY: We do awards like that.
ALEX: Oh my god, what have you won?
MISTY: Sales rep of the year.
ALEX: Oh, that's just so normal! I mean, congratulations, I'm very proud of you, but come on, give me something like White as Sneakers or still engaged or something, you know?
MISTY: Funny, my company, they used to do awards like that, but people got offended, so they couldn't do, I mean, it's pretty offensive, like Michael Scott.
ALEX: Well, the office is definitely offensive on purpose.
MISTY: Yes. So my company does, does MVP up and comer. They do awards that have very positive light and whoever is presenting the award will talk about the person a little bit and there's some suspense to it, but it's not anything that would embarrass anyone and be truly fun.
ALEX: Darn. Okay, so Jessica is starting to go on this journey and I love this quote she writes, "I know that deep down what scares you owns you and I didn't want to be owned by my fear anymore."
MISTY: That's deep.
ALEX: Yeah, it is deep. And while it seems like such a simple motto for life, it's not easy. Jessica's fear seemed to be keeping her from being able to connect with other people, to make friends. It keeps her from living this extroverted life that she wants to try on for a little while to see what happens.See if she can be happier. Do you have a fear that holds you back or has there been a time in your life when you've had to actively just be aware of when a fear could be controlling you or controlling your life?
MISTY: I was dating someone before I met my husband and it was pretty toxic relationship. I remember consciously thinking, going into my relationship with my husband, consciously making the decision that I'm not going to let past negative experiences influence my relationship with this person because it's a self -fulfilling prophecy. If I assume and predict that my husband is gonna make a mistake or my boyfriend is gonna do something that I disapprove of, then I'm essentially looking for him to make a mistake.
ALEX: And I do think, I think you see what you're looking for.
MISTY: Exactly, you're gonna make something, a problem in my relationship with my husband when we were dating, even now when we're married, I try not to have the thought that he's going to do something wrong or do something that will upset me, because if I have those thoughts, it always happens.
ALEX: And if you had let your past toxic relationship color your new one with your now husband, boyfriend at the time, you would have been setting him up to fail because you would have been viewing him through the lens of your past relationship and wrongly comparing him to your past partner.
MISTY: Yep.
ALEX: Okay, and look, there are times where people just legitimately have red flags and you have to be aware of those and you need to address them. –
MISTY: Agreed.
ALEX: But I know what you mean in this case. So then how did you find out? keep yourself from bringing your past relationship into your next one? How are you able to view your husband as he was instead of bringing your past hurt and baggage into the relationship? Because that can be really hard to do.
MISTY: For me personally, I have a few close confidants that I trust to talk through these things with. They kind of validate me in saying those thoughts or... are, they're negative. Don't you look at it from this angle? And I've found that over the years, my process is talking through things. And if I say it out in the open and say it out of my mouth into the universe, I find out that it does sound ridiculous, right? And when it comes to my husband, if I say out loud, oh, my husband is trying to do something to wrong me. when I say that I know that that's, of course, that's a ridiculous thought. Right. So I think processing things out loud, I've learned that that's how I, I get through difficult times. That's really great that you've learned that about yourself and you've found something that works.
ALEX: I feel like for me, I'm just going to imagine like a little Lizzie McGuire cartoon version of myself in my head. Like karate chop the negative thought away. I'm gonna see if that works. So I'm gonna try that for a little while, see if that works. Because when I speak my thoughts out loud, it feels more validating to me. If I say it to my husband or a good friend, and they're like, that's ridiculous, you're ridiculous, that like little monster thought inside my head is like, no, I'm not, ha ha. So I'm just gonna fight it physically with my cartoon. And I'll keep you posted because I don't want my fear to own me. I mean, that's just the truth. I would rather go through life thinking good things are going to happen and being positive and viewing it like a glass half full situation and maybe get disappointed every once in a while than go through life always expecting something bad to happen. I'm just choosing a different path to focus on the good. OK, so let's get back to Jess. Her brother reaches out to her and just straight up asks her, are you happy? And I was wondering, what is the last time that somebody has asked you that or you've asked yourself that? Am I happy?
MISTY: I guess a couple of years ago, my husband asked me if I was truly happy in my job because I was taking a lot of my work home. And I think I kind of started to realize that maybe my previous job wasn't fulfilling anymore. And so even though it was a really long process, I ended up starting the process of looking for another job. And I think that my husband asking it the way that he did open my eyes to, because you get into the, going through the motions every day, wake up, go to work, come home. You don't think to ask yourself things like that. So it helps when someone else points it out to you.
ALEX: And I think it can be scary because sometimes it does feel like we're just trying to survive. And then when you ask yourself, am I happy? But then when you have the answer to that, you have to say, well, why not?
MISTY: Right.
ALEX: And sometimes these things feel out of your control to change. And so for me personally, once I was able to let go of the things that I couldn't change and look inward and stay present and feel grateful for the things that I have, I was able to cultivate more happiness for myself. It was getting out of that, the grass is always greener mentality and saying, "Look, this is the lawn that I’m on, and so how do I appreciate it and not get so caught up in what other people are doing?" Also, change can be really scary.
MISTY: Yeah, can I do it? Am I going to make a change and fail? And I think that I just try to not worry if I'm going to fail because I probably will. I am human. I'm going to fail at something. And same thing with my husband. He was in a situation with a job recently and he wanted to change industries and all of that. And I just told him, "You may change jobs and not like it. And that's okay.” You have to be okay with making a decision, own your decision and say, "Hey, I made this decision, and it wasn't the right decision, or I didn't like my choice." And then move on from it.
ALEX: What I really am realizing is that so much of life is a mindset. mindset. So much of it is how you choose, purposefully choose to see the world. As Jess said, she wanted to stop using her self -described introvert label to hide from the world. Jessica is just trying to become more extroverted. She's just trying to connect with more people. But it feels very applicable to so many parts of our lives. So let's get back to her, Jess tries improv and stand -up comedy because they scare her so much. So what's the scariest thing you've ever tried?
MISTY: Karaoke.
ALEX: Ooh, that's good.
MISTY: I didn't even do it by myself because that's too much direct attention and I hated it. I did it in like a group of girls. We sang Spice Girls and I was just like, this is my nightmare. I never want to do this again.
ALEX: But you survived, didn't you?
MISTY: Yeah. I want to know what yours is though.
ALEX: You know, mine is actually the podcast. This whole this whole thing has been really scary. First off, it was really scary to reach out to my wonderful friends and ask them for their time and for their vulnerability and for their openness and for them to allow me to put that out there where people will be able to hear what we're talking about. And then I also, I just want to do my best to celebrate and do right by the women whose memoirs that I'm reading. No memoir is perfect. A lot of the ones that I'm reading are pretty close, but when people sit down to write about their lives and the things that they've learned and their journeys and the things that they've been through, I just think that's a really beautiful, sacred process. And so the podcast is about celebrating that and it's not about judgment. And I have been so delighted by the amount of women in my life who are showing up and supporting me. And you are the very first one to do that. So thank you. I really appreciate you. I'm excited to see where this goes. I'm really excited just to keep reading memoirs and talking about them with my friends. It's been really fun. So and what do they say if you can turn something fun or your passion into a job?
MISTY: you'll never work a day in your life.
ALEX: There you go. Okay. So she tries improv and she writes, "Psychologists say that improv classes can help alleviate social anxiety and stress. The exercises encourage you to think quickly on your feet, speak in front of others and become less obsessed with perfectionism. There's even an improv for anxiety class at the famous Second City Comedy Club in Chicago." Which side note, I went to second city and it was amazing, most incredible improv show ever. Okay, back to Jessica. “ It makes so much sense to me because spending a few hours a week in a safe space made the entire world seem kinder and more manageable. Mistakes were so easily forgiven, no one ever seemed to get annoyed when I froze.” Have you ever done improv?
MISTY: I've never done improv, but we have to do role playing at work.
ALEX: Okay.
MISTY: And I hate it.
ALEX: Oh, tell me more.
MISTY: I hate it because I'm like, this is not how I would behave in real life. These scenarios are not real. They're fake.
ALEX: Okay, but when you say that they're fake, what do you mean? Are they trying to expose you to a worse case scenario so that when you get something tamer, you're able to handle it? And maybe something like that or think in a different way than you would normally handle a situation.
MISTY: In my opinion, the person who is like driving the class or something always has an idea of where they want it to go so it's not true improv.
ALEX: That makes sense. They are trying to get to some sort of objective.
MISTY: Right, right. So, I just have never had any experience with true, true improv.
ALEX: The phrase yes and is a huge part of improv. The concept is basically just about being generous with your play and spirit and going with what is given to you and expanding on it. Play. That's what you're doing in improv. You're just playing and yeah and she writes about how delighted she is just to play again because when you grow up playtime is over and everything becomes goal-oriented.
MISTY: Yeah, or work.
ALEX: So she writes, "This isn't only about performance. It's about spontaneity, making it up as you go along, surrounded by other people. You can't plan for what's going to happen next. You have to react, but you're not sure how. And you often have no control over whom you're interacting with and what nonsense they're going to throw at you. You know, like real life."
MISTY: So deep.
ALEX: Girl, I was like... this is like a mic drop moment I'm telling you I love this book when she kind of put it like that. I was like, yeah We're all improving in our lives every damn day every day So yeah, it's just about like giving yourself the permission and the freedom and not viewing it as failing or succeeding but just being doing yeah, okay, so Misty the next time I come into town or if you you come out to LA, would you ever do an improv class with me?
MISTY: Maybe.
ALEX: I will take that maybe right now and I will run with it.
MISTY: Maybe, yeah.
ALEX: You're not saying no. We'll see, we'll get you out to LA first and then I'll surprise you. Be like, we're going to dinner, surprise! We're going to improv class. So after improv, Jess is feeling so great. So then she tries stand -up comedy and she writes, "It's my worst nightmare. But because of that, was the biggest fear I could imagine pulling off. It also felt like the most important. It combines pretty much all of my Shintrovert fears into one gruesome event and it feels like the ultimate chance to see whether I am or I'm not always going to be that person afraid and waiting in the shadows." Good for her, man. I really just applaud this idea of challenging yourself, breaking yourself out of of the boundaries that you put on yourself, breaking out of your comfort zone, seeing what you're capable of.
MISTY: And just trying it.
ALEX: That's right.
MISTY: And you know what my husband says? When I was changing jobs, I said, "What if I hate it?" And you know what he said to me? "What if you love it?" And I was like, "Why did I not even think of that? Why is it we think you're gonna try something and hate it versus try something and love it?" So I always try to remind myself of that.
ALEX: I love that. It's another really simple way just to flip that thought in your head. Instead of going straight to the negative or to the bad place, flip it, go to the good place. Okay, Jessica writes that “75 % of the public fear, public speaking, more than death, and sociobiologists trace this fear way back to our ancestors. Singling yourself out from a group is inviting them to attack you.” Do you have public speaking fears?
MISTY: Yeah, I do. I mean, you have to do it in school. I had to do it in college. You have to do it at work. It's not my favorite thing to do. I find my courage to do it by just doing it. I try not to obsess about what's going to happen or just be as prepared as you can be, but being in front of people is like physically sweat. It makes me so nervous.
ALEX: Oh my gosh, me too. Like my throat tightens, my stomach churns. It is something that in life you just have to do. And so you're right. Sometimes the only way to build up the confidence or courage to do something is just to not and then just do it anyway,
MISTY: Rip the bandaid.
ALEX: Now I wanna know, do you have to build up your confidence to make a sale, to attempt it? to make a sale? Because that to me, that would be really daunting.
MISTY: You have to build up your courage. I've never talked about this product, whatever it may be, right? The more you talk about things and the more you honestly, the more you get to know your customers, you find out that they're just trying to get by. They're just looking for the most helpful person. They may not have all the answers. I think you find that most people are in the same boat as you are.And so I don't have a hard time working up the courage now, but it was intimidating when I first started because what if I said something wrong and they bought from someone else because of me?
ALEX: Like a level of preparedness also gives you confidence. Once you know about the product that you're talking about, and that's really when it comes to like auditions for me. me or even the first day on set, I always get so nervous, the first scene. No matter how many times I've been on set, no matter how many first days I have, they all kind of feel the same in my body. But I just am prepared. I know I know the lines back and forth. I know I know the character. I know I've done my homework. I've done the work. And with auditions, I think one thing that really helps me is when I realize that the person casting wants me to get the job because they're trying to find the actor for the role. Mindset. But yeah, I don't think that there's a magic pill for confidence. I think sometimes you just have to do the damn thing
MISTY: And I think you can talk yourself out of just about anything.
ALEX: The very first time you do anything is scary because you don't know what to expect. But then once you can sort of have expectations of course still even flow because not every situation is exactly the same. At least you can have some idea of what to expect it. It's helpful, at least for me. I have fear of the unknown. So if I can at least give myself some sort of guideline, something to expect, it helps me a lot.
MISTY: It reminds me of the first time I ever got a shot and remembered it like as a child. I remember my parents, they wanted me to take allergy shots and we did all the testing and everything. And then it came time, you go get your shot in your arm, they give it to you in your arm. And I remember being in this room. I will never forget it. And I'm like, no, we can't do it. I kept like taking my arm away or no, I'm not ready or something. And then I don't know, 10, 20 minutes later, she gives me the shot and I'm like, that's it.
ALEX: Yeah.
MISTY: All this buildup for nothing.
ALEX: You had built it up in your head because when you don't have anything to compare it to, your mind goes worst case scenario.
MISTY: Yeah.
ALEX: So Jessica writes that “self -confidence doesn't find us. We have to push ourselves to do something hard and live through it and then confidence will eventually follow. I'd faked confidence (by doing stand -up) and by doing so created it.” Which really just I think speaks to exactly what you were talking about. You just fake it till you make it sometimes reach. Okay, so through the book, Jess talks a lot about mentors. And I want to touch on a few of them. So she talks with the director of psychotherapy and emotion Research Lab at Boston U, who regularly coaches people through their fears of interacting with others. This guy was telling her that face to face interactions are a lost skill. Funny, because when we were sort of talking about technological stuff yesterday, and I said, well, don't you have to zoom a lot and you were like no I pick up the phone and I thought that that was so interesting. I love that you still call people on the phone.
MISTY: I just feel like the internet is so awkward and I feel like people lose the ability to talk when it's on the internet and so I have found that simply picking up the phone and calling people the old -fashioned way is the easiest thing for me and then in turn once I get some on the phone, I literally within minutes will offer to come and see them in person because we're losing that person -to -person connection and we're going the way of AI and not needing human interaction to do most things. And I don't want to lose that. I love face -to -face human interaction. I think as a society, we need human interaction. interaction. We need each other. We need people. We need others.
ALEX: Connection.
MISTY: Yeah, we're made to be social.
ALEX Yeah, and I think a big thing that's missing during texts and emails is tone. And I know that emojis help, but hearing somebody say something in their voice, I use the audio message feature on my phone a lot more often than I text now because most of the time I'm just feeling chatty and it's really hard to like text. I'm not a super fast texter and my thumbs hurt. But also because I want the tone of my voice to come across so that there's no misinterpreting what I'm saying or how I'm saying it. We read each other's cues. There's a whole art of body language that you just miss when you're not having a face -to -face conversation. Yes. I think really important conversations should definitely at the very least happen on the phone, but if you can face -to -face or zoom to zoom so that you can look that person in the eyes when you're trying to communicate this thing.
MISTY: I agree. It's a lost art.
ALEX: We had one message machine for your entire family and everybody heard those messages. And if you wanted to call your friend, you probably had to speak to their parents first.
MISTY: You had to ask for them on the phone. That was scary.
ALEX: It was scary sometimes! Yeah.
MISTY: They don't know what it's like to wait by the phone to ring to talk to someone.
ALEX: (laughing) All right. So another mentor that she had was a professor of behavioral science at the Chicago Booth School of Business. And he did a study that discovered that when people talk to strangers during their commute, it makes them happier. He writes, "We polled people and asked, 'What percentage of people do you think would be willing to talk to you?'" you if you talked to them first?" People on trains thought 42 % and buses thought 43%. But the number was actually almost 100%. In reality, we're all pretty interested in connecting with each other.
MISTY: You know what I found in my line of work after almost like 15 years is that in our industry, we do a lot of driving. And so... I make it a point when I'm driving to intentionally call someone. Instead of sending a text, "How are you?", you call someone and ask them, "How are you doing? What's going on?" I call it windshield time. I look forward to my windshield time because I get to catch up with my friends or my family.
ALEX: I really love that. And while Jessica's book is more about connecting with strangers so she can make more friends and have more connections in the world, your windshield time is such a wonderful reminder that we have to spend time on the relationships that we do have too. And like you said, if you have time to pick up the phone, call someone, hear their voice instead of just sending them a text, that's great, but I also think that sending somebody that thinking of you text is just a really nice way to let people know that they're on your mind and they're in your heart because we're all so busy and we can make more friends. Not lose track of reaching out to one another. Once somebody is your friend, you still have to put in the work and energy into that relationship in order for it to continue to grow. And so I really love hearing about your windshield time because my windshield time is mostly listening to audiobooks and other podcasts, but I should call my friends and my family, especially when I know that I have some dedicated alone time because I don't have much dedicated alone time. these days. This same mentor tells Jess that the way to connect with people is to disclose info about yourself and ask deeper questions. Get past small talk and the weather. Jess relates a story where she engages in deep talk, as she calls it, with a stranger on a train. And at the end of the trip, he says, "What a nice surprise meeting you tonight. There was nothing romantic about it. It was just a genuine connection. Just a genuine connection." Just helped pass the time better. I really thought that that was cool. I love that he told her that. It was a really nice surprise meeting you. Another one of her teachers says that the fear of being intrusive is hugely exaggerated. What we should actually fear is being boring and dying, having never connected to anyone. Jess writes, "The older we get, the easier talking to strangers will become. With age, we grow more confident." and less involved in what other people think of us.
MISTY: I think it's disarming, too, if you speak to someone and you share something that might be vulnerable or a little more personal. It makes them feel like, "Oh, okay, this person is sharing something a little bit deeper with me. Maybe I can engage with them on a deeper level." I think that sometimes people are scared to get vulnerable because they..,
ALEX: they think that it'll be weaponized against them.
MISTY: Or they just think it's embarrassing. If you share things, most of the time, people are going to share something back and engage more.
ALEX: Yeah, it's about you opening that door and not asking somebody else to open it, putting yourself out there first, which to bring it back to Jessica is exactly what she has figured out and exactly what she's trying to do. do by learning all these tools, talking with all these people, trying out all these things. She's taking responsibility for making these connections and she's taking control of creating new friendships. And she writes about the importance of friendship slash non -romantic relationships. She writes, "Friends listen to you, laugh with you, give you advice, encourage you, inspire you, fill your life with joy." And we crave that feeling of ‘this person gets me more than I get myself.’ At one point, she tries a friend dating app, which I thought was really interesting. Would you ever try a friend dating app?
MISTY: I mean, I guess I would try it.
ALEX: To me, there's like a burden when you meet somebody in an app. It's kind of like, I am looking to take our relationship to a deeper level in a way where if you just meet somebody organically, there's no expectations and it's up to you both of you. working in parallel to make that relationship deeper. But I could see how if somebody works solo a lot, like Jess, she's freelance journalist. So she doesn't have a work environment that she gets to go and meet friends. She's moved to a completely new city. So she doesn't have school friends or friends that she grew up with. She does have to actively seek out friendship. And because she's an introvert, she's not going to go up to some random girl at the the gym and say hi. So I think that this really works for her. She does end up making a great friend from it eventually. But the woman that she does connect with, both of them are busy. And so there's a lot of like, hurry up and wait. We both really feel like we could be good friends, but the timing is a little off. She also writes “that it can be really awkward and disheartening because she writes in romance. potential suitors can pretend you have no chemistry or that you weren't their type. But because we can have as many friends as we want, being rejected as a friend is brutal. The message is loud and clear. I genuinely do not like being around you.” So yeah, when you put yourself out there like that, when you're expecting a friendship, it's hard. And you, the thing about friendships is that they evolve and you have those awesome moments where you discover things that each other that make you go, hey, we connect. That's really cool. But when you go to a coffee shop and you're just kind of like, all right, what are your interests? I have friends who have completely different interests than me, but we connect on the things that are important, like our values and the way that we want to see the world. And that's hard to just dissect down in an interview -ish setting.
MISTY: When I was growing up, my mom told me that not everybody was going to like me, so that--
ALEX: Your mom with the gems, man, like she's just so that's so smart, though, because it's true, but it's true. People will not like you for like the most stupid reasons too.
MISTY: They don't have to. They don't have to be your friend. They don't have to invite you to their birthday party or whatever. But I think that you don't want to have to force someone to be interested in you or you don't want to force someone to want to spend time with you.
ALEX: Yeah, she writes, “That studies say it takes six to eight meetings before someone feels like a friend.” She also writes that other research says it's about 50 hours of time with someone before you consider them a casual friend and 90 hours before they're like a friend -friend, when it becomes easy. And it makes sense 'cause you have that history to build on. It's, you know, that moment where you have the inside joke or you can be like, "Oh my gosh, remember when that happened?"
MISTY: Right.
So Jessica goes on this journey and in the end, she's still an introvert, but she's an introvert who can extrovert when she needs to or wants to. And that's a really important distinction. She writes, "Finding my voice and challenging myself to do intimidating things made me feel more confident. This is priceless in a world that can be scary, maddening, and unfair. When there are fewer things to be scared of and fewer things that can control us, this can only be a good thing. It was more than I could have ever hoped for when I started. I feel more in control of my life because I can extrovert. I can socialize in a room full of people I don't know. I can disrupt an entire theater row if I need to pee. I can befriend someone new. So, I'm beginning to think I'm slowly becoming less of a shy introvert and ever so slightly more of a gregarious introvert, a grin-trovert.”
MISTY: It sounds like a good book.
ALEX: It's a great book. OK, there are a few more quotes that I want to read to you and get your thoughts.
MISTY: OK.
ALEX: She writes, “It's so hard to imagine people we deem successful as vulnerable.”
MISTY: I think we forget that everybody deals with issues. And you have to remember, these are just people too.
ALEX: Yeah, I think vulnerability is beautiful. I think it's something to to admire in someone. Vulnerable doesn't mean weakness, right? Vulnerability does not equate weakness. Vulnerability to me is just a willingness to be open and to look for connections with other people and to admit mistakes and take ownership right? Okay, so the last quote is “I am struck by how saying things out out loud, declaring them to people makes them seem more real. How these once in a lifetime occasions come and then they go. How I do not want to regret not doing the thing, whatever the thing may be anymore."
MISTY: Yeah, I mean, I think we take for granted the importance of actually telling someone that you love them or telling someone that you care about them or that you had a good time, you know, spending time with them.
ALEX: Saying that you love someone out loud, like not being afraid to put words to a feeling, making sure people know how much they mean to you and what their worth is in your life. I think it's a really beautiful thing.
MISTY: Yeah, it's a really beautiful quote.
ALEX: I'm gonna take this opportunity to tell you how much I love you and how I feel so grateful for you. And thank you so much for talking about this book with me today. This book will always have a special place in heart, and I want to leave you all with one last quote from Jessica. She writes, "A big part of this year was the desire to be brave enough to do something that felt so contradicting to the kind of person I thought I was." We are more than who we think we are. I really believe that. And this book has really inspired me to be brave, to change the way that I think about myself, to change the way that I think about the world, to get out there, to push myself beyond my comfort zone, and to really experience life, like live life out loud to the fullest, to connect with others and not be so afraid. Once we get out of our own way, beautiful things can happen.
MISTY: Yeah.
ALEX: That's it for "Sorry I'm Late. "I Didn't Want to Come" by Jessica Pan. And that's it for the very first episode of Babes in Bookland. I think it was a great episode. I had a wonderful time talking with you today, Misty. And I can't wait to have you on again soon. Bye, everyone. Bye, Misty.
MISTY: Thank you. Bye.
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ALEX: Thanks for listening to Babes in Bookland. To access the full version of this episode, you can subscribe on Apple Podcasts or support us on Patreon. Visit babesinbookland.com for more information.